Please enter your user name and password: User Name: Password:
Register an account! · Forgot Password or Username?
What is Muelsfell? - Muelsfell: Rise of the Golems is a persistent browser-based game (PBBG) that revolves around the creation of magical golems by mages and magic users. Muelsfell is part combat, part roleplaying game, part resource management. Sign up for an account and give it a try -- for free!
Darghelm, in the Foothills of Ulvania
The hardy people of Ulvania value family bonds and friends over all else, so Darghelm has developed an extensive network of taverns, cozy inns, and messaging systems. They are not a cowardly nor xenophobic people and so allow people from all over the continent to use their taverns and speakeasy establishments.
You can read but will NOT be able to post until you login or Register
Index » Muelsfell Game Forum » General Gameplay Questions Muelsfell World v1.0 Forums
AuthorThread: The Senate
1 | Page 2
Denerid
Denerid's Avatar
Posts: 279
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 93 years old
Message #11164 Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 11:12 pm
Okay, I have a few questions about the finalized results on the past bills.

First off, here's the tallies

Cabalist Immunity Amendment
Totals: Yes 66, No 17, No Conf 5, Total 87
Weighted: Yes 55, No 46, No Conf 14, Total 115

And here's the result:

The Results said:

Arkham's CSM has passed by a weighted vote of 65.5-to-15.5, with a no confidence vote of 5, but enforcement will be left to the clans and individual magi.


Provision for the Testing of Referendums
Totals: Yes 36, No 5, No Conf 8, Total 49
Weighted: Yes 61, No 16, No Conf 15, Total 92

And here's the result:

The Results said:

Sconibulus's CSM has passed by a weighted vote of 36-to-4.5, with a no confidence vote of 7.5, but enforcement will be left to the clans and individual magi.



1) Why does the result's "weighted vote" not match the "weighted" count?
1a) Why does it match the "totals" most closely?
1b) Which result is the actual weighted result?

2) Why are there any half votes? First off, since the "weighted result" seems to actually be the total result, that's implying that (for the Cabalist Immunity Amendment) sixty-five and a half players voted for the amendment. How do you get half a player?

But assuming for a minute that this actually is the weighted result, I still don't see how this is possible. The description we have of the voting process doesn't allow for there to be half votes.

Arkham said:

Votes from individuals are grouped with other members of their clan (or with all clanless magi if the voter is not in a clan). If a majority of a single clan votes Yay for a referendum, then the clan is to have voted Yay for a referendum. Works the same with the No and No Confidence votes.

Depending on the votes of its members, a clan may be for or against a referendum. Each clan that votes in favour of a referendum adds the total level of its Headquarters as its total vote. Clanless votes are counted as if 'Clanless' was a clan itself, with an imaginary Headquarters level dependent on the total number of clanless voters.


The way this process is supposed to work is that we count up the votes from a single clan. If a majority of that clan's members voted Yay, then that clan's voting bloc gets added to the Yay column. Since a clan's voting strength is equal to its Great Hall Level, and you can't buy half a Great Hall upgrade, there shouldn't be any half votes. (There's no way to get a non-integer result from the sum of integers.)

So what is actually happening here? Are each clan's votes being divided up proportionately? If a a clan has 6 votes in the senate, and 75% of its members vote Yay and 25% vote Nay, how does it get added? The description we have of the voting process says that all 6 of the votes should go into the Yay column, because the majority of that clan voted Yay. If the description is inaccurate, and the votes are actually being divided up proportionately, then 4.5 votes should go Yay and 1.5 should go Nay.

As it stands, there seem to be half-votes flying around, so I have to assume it's being divided up proportionately. This changes things immensely from what we were told. As it was originally explained, I only had to make sure that a majority of the members voted the way the majority wanted, in order to have our full strength applied in that direction (which is frankly not that difficult, since I'd be making sure that my clan members did what they already wanted to do). Now I have to exercise complete control over the vote of every single member of my clan in order to put our full weight behind the Party Line (much more difficult).
FatherCoyne
FatherCoyne's Avatar
Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 91 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
Message #11166 Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 11:24 pm
1) Ark switched the "Weighted:" and "Totals:" rows...
... I guess that answers a and b too.

2) The weighted vote can include halves if any given clan is tied between two options, and has an odd HQ level... I suppose it can probably have thirds and sixths too.
It will never give the vote proportionally otherwise. Only for a tie.
[ADMIN] Arkham
Arkham's Avatar
Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #11201 Posted: Sep 3, 2008, 3:36 pm
There's a couple of errors in the final tally, one due to the fields on the table automatically rounding decimal values and one due to a mixup between values.

There are certain situations where a 1/2 vote can result, but that's normal and only under certain circumstances.

Neither of the final results are correctly showing the actual weighted result, which is what I'm looking into fixing.

Aside from that rather minor screwup, I'm actually pleased that everything else appears to have worked well.

Kep
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 91 years old
Message #11343 Posted: Sep 5, 2008, 5:54 pm
I'd like to see the gains from a subsidiary increased tenfold for everything save coins. It seems that a subsidiary should be a large boost, considering it takes at least a week, and a plurality of votes.

Coins seems fine at 50,000, maybe even a little higher than necessary

50,000 of each primary is just about useless, many individual members contribute more in a week, up it to 500,000 and it becomes at least valuable enough to consider.

1,000 of each secondary doesn't seem like much, 20 hit points on an exotic golem maybe. 10,000 is a little more than would be really necessary but it keeps the numbers nice.
CommComms
CommComms's Avatar
Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 96 years old
Message #11351 Posted: Sep 5, 2008, 9:03 pm
I half agree. On one hand, Sconny's totally right, the 50k of each resource and the 1k secondary resources is pretty much neglegible to even low level clans.

On the other hand, I see the subsidiary as more symbolic than functional, and the actual gain isn't that big of a deal. For larger clans, even the 50k coins isn't all that helpful.

Maybe an amount that scales with clan size? What it is now multiplied by the clan hq level for the primaries and .5 the hq level for the money? Just a thought.
laidan
laidan's Avatar
Posts: 1158
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 88 years old
Clan: OASIS
Message #18398 Posted: Nov 24, 2008, 7:45 pm
So, just for the sake of presenting a long-winded what if-
What if a clan is hit with multiple WOAs, dropping their HQ level enough so they have less slots than they do chosen clan items? Do they lose something they've picked, or just have to work it back up? Is this a sneaky, if slightly expensive, way to get rid of a slot wasted on a useless choice?
Yamikuronue
Yamikuronue's Avatar
Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 91 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #18403 Posted: Nov 24, 2008, 11:29 pm
More pressing, what if they get dropped so low they don't have room for all the members in the clan? Do members get booted?
[ADMIN] Arkham
Arkham's Avatar
Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #18656 Posted: Nov 28, 2008, 3:34 pm
Members are not booted nor are items lost. The clan operates in excess of its capacity.

They would have to rebuild past their previous level before getting any more slots or accepting more members. Total slots and member room available are determined based on the current level, not added when a building upgrades.

Kep
Nanashi
Nanashi's Avatar
Posts: 1115
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 95 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26125 Posted: Feb 21, 2009, 8:59 pm
Interesting to note that the most recent referendums that have ended are not in the list. Are they supposed to be added automatically once they pass or fail? Or does Kep add them himself?

Also it would be nice to see the terms of the past referendums, at least for the sake of the CSMs, cause if they manage to pass it is up to the clans involved to uphold the terms. Rather than anything enforced by say...the Dimitrian guard.
Yamikuronue
Yamikuronue's Avatar
Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 91 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #26131 Posted: Feb 22, 2009, 2:53 am
I believe only passed referandums are catalogued.
Nanashi
Nanashi's Avatar
Posts: 1115
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 95 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26132 Posted: Feb 22, 2009, 4:05 am
Not true. All bills that have come before the senate are supposed to end up on the list of past referendums. If you look you will be able to see many that have failed or passed. Seeing the terms of the bills is mostly just important for any CSM that happens to pass which so far hasn't happened...

But you will notice that voting for 2 (or is it 3 now?) bills recently ended. the WOA(?) that Badhorse tried to levy on OTAKU failed, while the CNOS on CRAZY8 passed. Neither of these shows up on the list of past referendums.
Tzadkiel
Tzadkiel's Avatar
Posts: 596
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 98 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26151 Posted: Feb 22, 2009, 6:10 pm
What I see is that the history shows no bills from 2009. Suggests an error in the lookup field.
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 91 years old
Message #26153 Posted: Feb 22, 2009, 6:17 pm
That would also explain why those achievements haven't been counting, I wonder if it's caused by the flip to 2009, or a bug in the code for the achievement interface keeping the data from being written.
hydraxon
hydraxon's Avatar
Posts: 17
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 87 years old
Message #32656 Posted: Jun 27, 2009, 7:05 pm
i thought of something if you haven't already to encourage more people to vote make an achievement that says something like vote for 500 of each referendums or something...
then again that might make a bit of a spam...
mostly just a thought that crossed my mind
Yamikuronue
Yamikuronue's Avatar
Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 91 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #39002 Posted: Nov 11, 2009, 4:47 pm
So, the issues from page 1 of this thread are coming into play. Specifically:

We accidentally proposed a CNOS instead of a WOA. I was temporarily elevated to SM but even then, I can't propose a WOA for MAGIER because the CNOS is on the table. Effectively, the CNOS is blocking my ability to punish them.

I wish there was a way to pull a bill <.<

A week STILL feels like an incredibly long time. Hell, our voting in the clan is only open for 4-5 days per poll, and that's a bit long. 3-4 days would be plenty >.> it's like, "Seriously, is that bill still out there? It's been forever, everyone's already voted".
Semaj
Semaj's Avatar
Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 89 years old
Real Name: Semaj
Website: Click Here
Email: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com
Message #39013 Posted: Nov 11, 2009, 9:02 pm
Why no an auto pass/fail for bills? I mean isn't there a set number of votes a bill can hit before when becomes imposable for it to go in a different direction and has no choice but to pass/fail or whatever? Why not write up a script that automatically pushes though bills at that point?
laidan
laidan's Avatar
Posts: 1158
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 88 years old
Clan: OASIS
Message #39014 Posted: Nov 11, 2009, 9:24 pm
A good idea, but it seems like normally only a fairly small percentage of a given clan is actually voting, which seems like it would make that not work very well.
Noreen
Noreen's Avatar
Posts: 102
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 83 years old
Message #39016 Posted: Nov 11, 2009, 10:08 pm
Also thre are the non-clan members to think about.. each vote counts and the level depends on how many actualy vote (assuming I am reading te rules corectly).
Nanashi
Nanashi's Avatar
Posts: 1115
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 95 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #39021 Posted: Nov 12, 2009, 3:30 am
The votes are grouped by clan (or clanless) then each group get a certain amount of voice based on the level of the great hall. The voice goes towards the majority vote for each clan (whether it is 2:1, 3:0, etc.), if the vote is divided (1:1, 2:2) the voice gets divided between the two.

Or at least that is what I have noticed during the voting process. No idea how the final votes actually get counted.
Kaelas
Kaelas's Avatar
Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 93 years old
Real Name: Barry
Message #39026 Posted: Nov 12, 2009, 3:53 am
Still, you would think there would be a window to rescind a new bill. Or perhaps a 'concede' button for the Senator that sent it to the floor.

Granted, this could be abused a little if the vote is leaning towards 'no confidence' but that could be prevented easily enough.

Either disable the 'concede' button if the projected vote is going that way or have the results be the same (bill is stricken from the record and the Senator is banned for whatever time period being 'no confidenced' bans you for. The concede button is this case would just speed things up a bit.
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 91 years old
Message #39028 Posted: Nov 12, 2009, 5:22 am
Huh... I think this is going to be the first time a no confidence happens, I guess we're going to find out the amount of time Kae's trapped on the sidlines... /me crosses his fingers for six months : () )
Kaelas
Kaelas's Avatar
Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 93 years old
Real Name: Barry
Message #39096 Posted: Nov 13, 2009, 4:37 am
Haha.

Also, remember I can just promote someone else to propose Bills for me. 'Course, that means I won't be getting the credit for the Achievement but... meh.
 
First | Page 2
Muelsfell Chat Options
Muelsfell currently has no official chat room setup, but there is an unofficial player run chat called Darkmyst Muelsfell Conference.

Username: 


Disclaimer: Please note that this chat is NOT moderated, supported, owned, or operated by Muelsfell staff. Muelsfell is not responsible for the content or function of the chat room, nor is it linked in any way to Muelsfell game functions such as your workshop, account name, or password (your magus name is forwarded to the chat as a nickname if you are logged in when you join the chat). Muelsfell Terms of Service do not apply for this chat, so please use this only at your own risk, and remember that official game staff will NEVER ask for your password.
Why wait? Register for your free account and start playing right now!

Play Muelsfell!