| Author | Thread: Killer golems | Page 1 | 2 |
| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #11715 Posted: Sep 10, 2008, 11:22 am |
So for all the pvp fans out there, how does your golem stack up. Post your golem type and level here, as well as it's wins/losses/kills and compare it to everyone elses.
My killer golem:
Bone golem, Level 2
262 wins
34 losses
38 kills
What's your killer golem? |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #11771 Posted: Sep 10, 2008, 10:26 pm |
I've been putting off posting about this, waiting to see how spells would go and such, but this seems a good segue so here it is.
I feel the amount you can increase strength on golems should be changed. Perhaps a set 20 points or something max, so flesh could go to 30, bone to 40, iron to 70. As it is now if you're motivated enough you can make a level 2(or maybe level 3-6 if you want more insurance against it's destruction) golem that does pretty much old broken glass golem damage. Yes you have to pay a whole lot of xp for it, but that doesn't change the(in my opinion) game breaking effect a low level golem(for xp reasons, motivation cost, and the number of attacks it can make against a single person) doing that kind of damage can have. Also I would expect the way it is now, when people start getting really high level (50-100) with the high motivation gains that entails, suped up bone golem will become the standard. Also I suspect it would make weapons pretty obsolete in most circumstances.
Another option would be the strength gains increase real damage instead of minimum damage, but that would need careful tweaking to be worthwhile.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. On topic other than against MAGIER I haven't done much pk so my "killer" golem has a mere 28 wins, 5 losses(all against monsters), and 7 kills.
*edited for killer golem record accuracy, since I was working before and couldn't check*Last Edited: Sep 11, 2008, 5:23 am |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #11815 Posted: Sep 11, 2008, 8:51 am |
| Not entirely sure I agree with you there on having a cap for strength, but I may be a tad biased. You do have to sink a lot of xp into your golem to give it really good strength, I'd be around 3 levels higher if I hadn't spent xp on strength and your low level, high strength golems are still at much greater risk of being destroyed, particularly when luck turns against you. In which case you lose all your hard won xp. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 133 years old Clan: ADV | Message #11840 Posted: Sep 11, 2008, 2:45 pm |
I have to agree that raising a golems strength isn't as much of an issue. Panacea raises an excellent point in that they die (due to lower hit points) just as well. It may just be that no one is at that level to make it worthwhile to experiment though.
I know of some people who have raised their starter fleshies into level 5 monster killers, but seem content with the visceral sense of accomplishment gained by watching a level one fleshie taking them down.
That may change, so this issue probably does bear monitoring.
edits: spellingLast Edited: Sep 11, 2008, 6:29 pm |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #11856 Posted: Sep 11, 2008, 5:25 pm |
In my experience so long as you don't leave the golem out as a defender, it's really not in too much danger. Might lose some limbs or the like, but it takes some pretty bad luck to actually lose it. I accidentally attacked the female mountain giant with a flesh golem once and it wasn't destroyed. Usually it takes a shut down and then another attack(sometimes a couple more) to drop them; so long as you're armored a bit anyway. Your golem's record shows as much, kills aren't easy to come by even when you're attacking.
Anyway this is more of a long term concern, and is more of an issue that a full strength bone is pretty much preferable to any other type of golem for attacking, strength enhanced or otherwise. Copper/bronze/brass or glass might do a little more damage, but they can also only attack once, are much less likely to get you decent xp, and use a whole lot more motivation. As for iron/stone/clay/wood/flesh, they would all do quite a bit less damage, as well as(aside from flesh) generally being the same or higher level. It would also make weapons(at least based on what's been implemented so far) and for that matter armor(though you'd still have to wear it, and as such lose it) pretty obsolete. I also fear long term it would make good defeence golems obsolete, as even a level 5 adamantine with a level 15 wall can't stand up to 3-4 attacks doing 400-600 damage each. |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #11897 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 1:03 am |
Well I think some of the weapons actually balance out the increased damage by strength modded golems, particularly the spiked chain. And I agree that kills are hard to come by and while I luckily haven't lost my modded golem yet, I have come quite close, had a recent bout of attacks where all the defender's attacks seemed to hit my chest.
And I can say for the record 400-600 damage is not a common occurence, particularly against an adamantine. I pretty much have to attacking an iron golem that has aemaeth parchment in the middle of the day with no weather and in the desert to get up in those numbers. The most common response to attacking an adamantine is knock the wall down a couple of levels before being destroyed and possibly losing a limb.
Personally, I think it's just a different strategy of play, relying mostly on one smaller golem than an array of more powerful golems. For example, I can't use the large chest only powersources with my golem, which is a big disadvantage. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #11905 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 2:03 am |
A piece of chainmail makes a spiked chain quite wasteful. But the obsolescence wasn't even taking armor into account, as a bone golem wielding a spiked chain hitting a naked flesh would do 40ish(47ish with full strength) I believe, at a cost of roughly 60 energy. A bone golem with full strength, punching, will do roughly 72 damage regardless of armor(more like 80ish against a naked fleshy) with 60 energy. Of course both of those aren't taking into account missing, and the spiked chain has a bonus to hit, but a 50% hit rate on fists is better than a 75% hit rate on the chain, and if there's any armor involved it gets a lot worse fast.
Also my 400-600 number was based on a full strength bone golem running an oroborus.. I would hope you haven't hit 80 strength yet, but I'm sure you don't have an oroborus:) You'll notice I said 3-4 attacks, which would be a level 3-4 bone golem. It was also ballpark, but I don't think it too unreasonable with a level boost and oroborus(I was talking long term, and I imagine you'll gain levels, which improves accuracy) The fact that you have done 400-600 at all without an oroborus and hopefully full strength, backs that up to a degree.
As for hitting adamantine it would require using the bulk of your capacity on armor, 2 arms, and an avoidance of bad luck, but I've hit adamantine with level 1 clay and come out alright, so it's not too unreasonable. And if it came down to it you could hit the wall with a regular golem first so the fast damage from the bone knocked stuff off the adamantine faster than stuff is knocked off of the bone, which is basically how the old glass worked.
And none of that counters my point that a strength enhanced bone is better for attacking than a strength enhanced anything else in darn close to all circumstances. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 133 years old Clan: ADV | Message #11940 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 1:23 pm |
| ...can't stand up to 3-4 attacks doing 400-600 damage each.
..I said 3-4 attacks, which would be a level 3-4 bone golem.
Ok, I was confused, I thought you had meant three or four attacks as in number, rather than the type of golem providing the damage. Thanks for clarifying. :)
Since standard armor can block all the damage but the strength minimum, the damage to the defending golem is likely still survivable (depending on size and composition), but I agree, the barricade would take a terrible beating. Not much worse than the trebuchet or other construction tools designed to tear down walls though.
Right now it seem more like a case of 'six of one and half-dozen of the other' to me. Maybe I'm missing something? |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #11958 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 4:20 pm |
Actually I meant both. Part of the advantage of such a bone golem is it's low level means despite it's massive damage it can attack the same person multiple times. A level 3 bone golem could attack 4 times, a level 4 could attack 3 times. As such the total damage would be around 1200-2400, more than enough to get the job done I would imagine.
The issues I'm trying to get across are 1) why max out an iron, stone, clay, or wood, when a bone will do so very much more, and at a lower level to boot. Makes other golem types kind of obsolete. And 2) The fact that it is a lower level means that it can attack a lot, at a comparatively low motivation cost, and gets you experience as if you're outclassed, but in fact can destroy pretty much anything in a few attacks so long as you know what you're doing, without much the defender can do about it. So the balance is a bit iffy.
Yes it requires a hefty investment, but long term everyone is going to be able to afford to do it, and in my eyes at least, not be able to afford not to do it. If I had interest in PK I'd certainly do it.. and as seen by Panacea's 1100 score a day 2 days running at level 13(and thus 160 motivation a day instead of the 240 for someone 19+) it won't take very many people making and using one to make it so it doesn't pay to leave a defending golem out or a barricade up.
Shrug, it's just my opinion and it would seem other people don't agree. Not sure I have any other points to make so I guess either I'm wrong or just explaining my thoughts poorly. Or both:). But I have seen the future, and it is a blighted landscape of destroyed walls and broken golems. Where only the strength enhanced survive and the dead walk among the living. Sort of.
*edit* I kind of went off on a tangent and didn't address your specific points. Sorry about that. Anyway,
Since standard armor can block all the damage but the strength minimum, the damage to the defending golem is likely still survivable
This is part of the problem. A fully strength increased bone's(and any other type, but bone has a low energy cost per attack. The lowest of the standard resource golems, so gets the most attacks) minimum damage per hit is 9, the 400-600 damage I am suggesting is calculated using only that minimum damage. An iron limb will already bring a bone golem to minimum damage, so the armor will only serve to give them stuff to loot.
Not much worse than the trebuchet or other construction tools designed to tear down walls though.
The difference here is that construction tools(as well as normal weapons, particularly ranged weapons since they don't get the strength boosted minimum) are affected by armor, so against a decently armored foe they're basically just wasting energy at this point.Last Edited: Sep 12, 2008, 4:43 pm |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 133 years old Clan: ADV | Message #11964 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 4:49 pm |
Actually, since I don't have much PvP experience, and what I do have is almost exclusivley as a defender, I appreciate your insights on this. Your arguement is actually pretty compelling. I might have to think on this for a while...
Seperately, while I was under the impression that Construction Tools don't do any damage to the defender -just to the wall - that really makes no difference to the arguement. Meh, it's not like I have access to one at this point to verify anyway. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #11966 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 4:59 pm |
| I haven't actually used construction tools either, but damage done to walls by normal means is affected by armor worn by the golem, even if the golem isn't hurt, and what I've heard about construction tools is they merely apply a modifier to the damage done. So if you do 20 normally, you'll do 40 or some such with the trebuchet, but if you do 1 normally, you'll do 2 with the trebuchet. Something like that. |
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| Poseidon Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 113 years old
Real Name: Jack Website: Click HereEmail: kingclown00@hotmail.com | Message #11993 Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 11:10 pm |
I don't think the bone golems are the problem. From my personal experience, it's usually better to buff things than to nerf others.
One problem I see is that the equation for determining the number of attacks a particular golem can do is flawed.
While anything above stone can only attack once every seven hours, things like the bone golem can attack 6-7 times every hour. The number of attacks starts to high and drops too fast. The Adamantine golems are the only ones that really deserve such a hinderance as a one attack per hour rate. Everything else should get at least two, and the low types (i.e. flesh, bone) shouldn't get more than five. It just needs to progress better. |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #12001 Posted: Sep 13, 2008, 1:52 am |
Well Necaria I'm not disagreeing with your arguements because it's wrong or poorly explained, all your arguements seem to make a good point, I just have a different perspective and interpretation on the whole thing. That perspective being the one with the exceedingly strong golem.
Necaria saidThe issues I'm trying to get across are 1) why max out an iron, stone, clay, or wood, when a bone will do so very much more, and at a lower level to boot.
I haven't actually played with buffing other golem types so I don't know if other golem types are worth it. But I would assume that it would make them more able to compete with a buffed bone, especially if they're sitting behind a spiked wall. I mean I have had my golem shut down before by something as innocuous as a clay golem, which I'm pretty sure was unbuffed. Now that isn't too common, it was a freak chance of fate, but if someone bothered to increase their strength then it would certainly happen on a more frequent basis. I see your point about the disadvantages of maxing other types, less attacks per 8 hours and less hits per attack and since everything has the same max strength of 80, it does put bone golems in an enviable position, but there are some benefits to the other types ie. less xp to max it, more hitpoints on chest, better resists on chests and in the case of high level golems more reach (case in point, a level 5 bone golem has much better reach but it basically loses it's advantage of many attacks per 8 hours).
Further, fast golems are dramatically affected by the golembane spikes. This brings up the point of repair costs. If your attack strategy is many attacks, doing lots of damage but taking a bunch in return, your repair costs can be crippling, I can spend 60 or 70 thousand in iron a day in repair costs. contrast this to say a copper golem which can wipe out 6 levels of wall and take less than 5000 in repairs.
but perhaps changes do need to be made, perhaps along the lines of what Poseidon is suggesting. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #12002 Posted: Sep 13, 2008, 1:56 am |
Well, I agree with you in principle, but although making the other golems more useful would keep them from being as obsolete hopefully, it wouldn't do much about the other issues I mentioned.
I don't think a cap to the amount of strength added, rather than a cap on the total is that bad an idea really. It would still boost golems, but it wouldn't totally throw them out of their level range. A bone golem doing 4 damage isn't nearly as broken as one doing 9, but is still quite a bit better than 2. It wouldn't be a perfect solution by any means, but it would be an easy one, and one I think is kind of logical anyway. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for a glass golem's strength to max out at the same point an adamantine golem's does. Also if it was going to be experimented with, now would be the time since I imagine there's only a couple of them out there that would need to be reduced and an xp refund given. Be a lot more work to do down the line if it was deemed necessary.
Another option of course would be to have strength effect level.. but I think my cap idea would work better, and almost certainly be simpler.
*edit because Panacea snuck his response in while I was typing mine up:)*
It is cheaper to max the other types, but I don't consider that balance enough. Eventually everyone is going to have the xp free to max a golem or 2. Spiked walls are an issue, but bone are also going to avoid them the most aside from glass(and I think we can all agree no-one is going to be bothering to max out a glass at the moment) and copper which I think is only a little better. It will also only take more damage from them than the bigger golems because they hit more, and as such they're doing more damage too, a more than reasonable trade off. As for copper taking less, if they both have maxed strength, have armor, and are fighting an armored opponent, they should be doing pretty similar damage, and require pretty similar repair costs, it only has 2 more speed to dodge and avoid spikes more. It should also cost more to repair since you need copper for chest repairs instead of bone. Copper will do a bit more and also hit spikes a bit more(uses a bit less energy to attack), but it's also massively higher level and will use a lot more motivation to do it.
Last Edited: Sep 13, 2008, 2:19 am |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #12026 Posted: Sep 13, 2008, 3:36 pm |
| And don't forget the xp factor with copper vs bone, a buffed bone golem is going to have a much easier time finding opponents to gain xp against than the copper. |
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| Nageya Posts: 86
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 111 years old
| Message #12117 Posted: Sep 15, 2008, 4:27 am |
| actually a buffed lvl 3 bone is only one lvl below copper xp wouldn't be too big of an issue and well equipped Iron and above are pretty risky to take on with lower lvl golems |
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| Nageya Posts: 86
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 111 years old
| Message #12118 Posted: Sep 15, 2008, 4:35 am |
| actually a buffed lvl 3 bone is only one lvl below copper xp wouldn't be too big of an issue and well equipped Iron and above are pretty risky to take on with lower lvl golems |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #12120 Posted: Sep 15, 2008, 5:11 am |
Level 3 bone is 3 levels below a level 1 copper not 1(level 4 vs level 7), has the same hp, only slightly worse resistances, and the strength increase should allow you to swing enough armor. As such it shouldn't be any more difficult to take on higher level golems with and will result in more xp and lower motivation costs(and if you don't strength enhance the copper the bone will be quite a lot easier to do it with. An unenhanced bone will likely do poorly, but strength enhanced bone is what this was all about).
Also, sorry about derailing your thread Panacea. People should post their killer golems so I don't feel as bad about it:)
*edited because I got the level of the bone wrong initially too, hehe*Last Edited: Sep 15, 2008, 5:17 am |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #12387 Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 11:33 pm |
And to rerail the thread somewhat I am turning this into something of a competition, whoever has the most killer golem will be awarded a monetary prize of 5000 gold coins (and I am not entering myself.
So post up your golem's rcord for a chance to win. |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #12407 Posted: Sep 19, 2008, 5:17 am |
...
My golem has... one more kill and ten more wins than the next highest golem someone enters...
honor system ftw. |
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| Kaelas Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old
Real Name: Barry
| Message #12413 Posted: Sep 19, 2008, 6:38 am |
Panacea can just ask the winner to put the killer golem outside their workshop, where anyone can see the win/loss/kill record of said golem.
Edited to reduce tone. I shouldn't post after a bad day at work.Last Edited: Sep 20, 2008, 6:09 pm |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #12445 Posted: Sep 19, 2008, 6:05 pm |
As I am a moron, I completely forgot it displayed that. My bad.
Well, I use three golems for my pvp needs, but the one with the most impressive record is a level 1 bone with 169 wins, 8 losses, and 33 kills. |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #12622 Posted: Sep 22, 2008, 8:26 pm |
Haha well I completely forgot about golems outside the workshop as well, I was going to have them send me a screenshot but your idea is much better Kaelas.
I will close this little competion in one to two weeks so post up your records or CommComms will end up winning ;) |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #12632 Posted: Sep 22, 2008, 10:49 pm |
I was thinking screenshot too, but since it's just a bit of text anyone could whip up a fake in photoshop pretty easily.
Also, am I allowed to re-post my entry if it changes between now and two weeks from now? If so a hard closing date would be nice, so me or someone else who's grinding up their golem's record doesn't miss entering because they didn't post soon enough. Or perhaps that's just a risk you'll have to take grinding up your golem? In that case perhaps a limit on individual entries? Or am I making this casual competition more complex than it should be? Do I ask too many questions? |
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| Boras Posts: 61
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #12690 Posted: Sep 23, 2008, 5:52 pm |
| Oh dear, Panacea is getting people to put their prize killer golems out on display as defenders. Now that can't go wrong, surely... :P |
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