Muelsfell: Rise of the Golems - Fantasy Browser Games by Necrotales Games

Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old

Message #13079 Posted: Sep 29, 2008, 10:24 pm

Kaelas
So i'll ask again, how much funding for entering the msl?[edit] for a single player that is..[/edit]

"As for only receiving funds if the bills pass, yes that is true. However, the more Clans and Magi that join the MSL, the more likely that each funding bill will pass (as it would be expected for participant to approve each bill, after all, you want everyone else to approve yours)."

thats just naive. sorry but it is. its wide open to petty vindictive nay voting and you know it will happen.[edit] plus you should know that the more voters the more ambiguous the result, one vote gives a 50/50 chance of passing - i don't need to go into the complexities of having more voters really, especially not with the weighting system....[/edit]

i was refering to this part of the edit..
"but in light of recent attacks upon this institution in the Tattler,"

Last Edited: Sep 29, 2008, 10:56 pm

Kaelas

Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old

Real Name: Barry

Message #13085 Posted: Sep 29, 2008, 11:46 pm

Clan funds to MSL members in good faith:

A clan will be given funds in the form of a non-operating subsidiary that equals 50,000 units of each primary resource including gold coins, and 1000 units each of secondary resources, excepting adamantine.

Individual Magi funds to members in good faith:
A Magus will be given funds amounting to 5,000 units of each primary resource including gold coins, and 100 units each of secondary resources, excepting adamantine.

As for the chance that the bills will be voted down, why do you place the odds so grim? The members of MSL will likely vote yes, as if they don't, the other members won't approve their funding. Other Clans not in the MSL don't get anything (expect for negative feelings) for turning down the bills either. So why wouldn't they pass?

EDIT- these would be given out weekly.

Last Edited: Sep 29, 2008, 11:48 pm

Endovior

Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 118 years old

Message #13105 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:36 am

Why would we vote your subsidy bills down? Perhaps it might have something to do with the upcoming war.

*Cracks Knuckles*

Doesn't matter much more now, anyways. It's on, and I doubt you'll have much time off to attack each other.

Kaelas

Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old

Real Name: Barry

Message #13113 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 6:20 am

Huh? Since when do Dukes get to declare war? Hey Poseidon, if you read this, please drop in the Conference Channel, methinks we have some more issues to talk over.

As for now, if you stop bashing us, we'll stop smashing you back. Simple, no?

EDIT: And for those in the cheap seats: if you don't join the MSL, you can't complain that the rules don't apply to you. This is not a hard idea to comprehend. For example, NWO is not part of the MSL. They turned down membership. They're not bound, nor protected by the MSL's rules.

So stop trying to get it both ways.

Last Edited: Sep 30, 2008, 6:42 am

Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old

Real Name: Bay
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Message #13125 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 12:52 pm

Endovior, it seems, has declared war on TOMU. Thank you for telling us... fifteen attacks in. Ah well. We defend our own.

Endovior

Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 118 years old

Message #13134 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 4:52 pm

I posted that after being informed by clan message and forum post that we were at war... which, I would note, was a direct response to coordinated attacks against certain of our members.

So in essence; when you attack us multiple times, and we respond appropriately, this is considered war. I did not so much declare war as announce an already existing state, a decision not made unilaterally, but one that I was informed of by my leaders.

This should come as no surprise... unless, perhaps, you were instead of the opinion that we were going to sit back and take it?

Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old

Real Name: Bay
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Message #13136 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:04 pm

So in essence; when you attack us multiple times, and we respond appropriately, this is considered war.

So when Gryficus hit me 10 times, 4 of which were looting raids, and my clan banded together to hit him back, that's not already at war, according to you. Only when you decide to hit me back.

Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #13138 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:17 pm

Yamikuronue said:

Endovior said:

@Yami: The consensus regarding any alliance between us was, when last mentioned: "We have allies?"

I've taken under advisement the unreliability of Poseidon's statements and promises in the future.

Since he isn't in this thread to defend himself. Poseidon is not our dictator. We are a loose consortium of appropriately aligned evildoers. Not minions. We all play the game as we personally see fit, and occasionally band together against the tyranny of imposed rules, like those put forth by yourself. So the fact that we do something and Poseidon says something else, is not necessarily his fault.

Long live chaos
Hail Eris! God of Discord

Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
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Real Name: Bay
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Message #13140 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:23 pm

Obviously. Obviously your SM doesn't speak on behalf of your clan. Obviously signing an alliance treaty means you can feel free to ignore the conditions within it. Obviously because we're running a mini-game we're dictators. Obviously NWO is a speshul snowflake who isn't bound by the restrictive rules of common sense, or even the courtesy of making sense when they speak. Obviously freedom means smashing your allies into the ground, claiming you were never allies, sending your SM to represent your clan at a conference then deciding he doesn't speak for your clan, and getting all butthurt when we try to organize a sort of team sport because OMG, it has rules.

I am so done with this farce of a diplomacy.

Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old

Message #13142 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:33 pm

"As for the chance that the bills will be voted down, why do you place the odds so grim? The members of MSL will likely vote yes, as if they don't, the other members won't approve their funding. Other Clans not in the MSL don't get anything (expect for negative feelings) for turning down the bills either. So why wouldn't they pass?"

if the voting were one vote per clan cast by the SM then there is a good chance that the bills would pass.
under the current system, if it was only down to the members then any slight animosity by individual magi would only have a small chance of adversely affecting the result.
but unless over 50% of the weighted vote are members then i can't see good odds for bills passing, as why would the non-members who have decided to not join for whatever reason allow other clans to get free resources and money when they can have a say in the matter and stop it?
Its a matter of sensible economics. why would you let the other guy get free stuff when you don't?
If you want proof on the matter simply raise a bill now to give yourselves bonus funds. as an incentive, offer to follow skirmish rules for any clan who results in a majority 'aye'.
I don't say it won't pass, but i would be surprised if it wasn't less than a sure thing.

on the other hand, if people could secure funds for a particular clan in return for that clan not excessively attacking them then they might just be tempted to take the offer. Personally i'm very undecided as to what i would do, though it would be nice to be paid to not attack someone.

On that thought though, why would i want to then pay the person/people the same amount back in order to not be attacked in return. I want my financial advantage as well as my martial advantage in order to further myself over others and thusly gain more payment which i can use to advance further....
NB i personally don't ask any 'donations' to cease unreasonable attacks against anyone of clear lower level, just a polite personal request will move me onto another target until they're more advanced...

Apologies in advance if all that doesn't make complete sense, its been a long...whatever-since-i-slept-last.

ps, do people have to join by or on the 1st to qualify for the first week of rewards? or are there still a few days left to think about it?

Posts: 1288
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Real Name: Bay
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Message #13143 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:36 pm

You know, vanishing, some clans work together as a unit. We communicate, hold polls, and try to come to a consensus.

Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old

Message #13146 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 5:52 pm

Hey, i'm just answering a question about a technical oversight, and trying to ask/get answered a few of my own. Don't shoot me for trying to take an interest and make an informed decision.

Just because i choose to be a member of NWO doesn't mean that i should be pigeon-holed to whatever notion anyone has of the clan.
for the time being i will assume you are just shortsighted and not clanist. does my iron golem not clang? does my clay not squelch as much as the next persons?
I am not a number!

Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #13148 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 6:02 pm

slight misunderstanding. This has nothing to do with your Skirmish League. Games and Fun are not what we are against.

The ultimatum you sent our clan IS, in the same way Magier's ultimatum was. In our group, we all makes our own rules, and are under no certain protection from the rest of our clan if they are revenged upon.

When someone proposes to enforce strict and mandated rules upon us, well, you see what happens. We don't react well to that.

Halftea

Posts: 1307
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 133 years old
Clan: ADV

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Message #13150 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 6:08 pm

Vanishing said:

... Does my iron golem not clang? Does my clay not squelch as much as the next persons?
I am not a number!

This.

This is why I love these forums so much. Thank you Vanishing for providing me that impassioned bit of mental imagery to get me through my day.

Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old

Real Name: Bay
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Message #13159 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 9:13 pm

Gryficus said:

slight misunderstanding. This has nothing to do with your Skirmish League. Games and Fun are not what we are against.

The ultimatum you sent our clan IS, in the same way Magier's ultimatum was. In our group, we all makes our own rules, and are under no certain protection from the rest of our clan if they are revenged upon.

When someone proposes to enforce strict and mandated rules upon us, well, you see what happens. We don't react well to that.

On September 13, 2008, 23:30, Yamikuronue wrote:
------------------------
Our clans, if I remember rightly, have an agreement - skirmishing is fine, but destroying clan golems and raiding is not. All we asked was that he not repeatedly pound our clanmate into the dirt to the point where he can't play the game because he constantly repairs his walls, and not break our clan golems or raid our stuff. If this is too harsh a burden, the terms of the skirmishing agreement can be altered, but if your clan members don't bother to stick to it, there's no point in having an agreement at all.

(emphasis mine)

I understand full well now that none of you have any organized leadership as a clan, that you're only banded into a clan to get some goodies out of it. But my clan, and the other clans I talk to, are not like this. Furthermore, nobody bothered to inform me of this - Poseidon spoke on behalf of his clan, signed treaties on behalf of his clan, and expressed his full support for this agreement up until it was broken, when his attitude became "Well, I can't really do anything about it, but I'll try". No attempts were made to explain anything. Blame him for signing the agreement, not us for being upset when it was callously discarded.

Last Edited: Sep 30, 2008, 9:14 pm

Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #13160 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 9:30 pm

Please don't blame poseidon. He is a good evil guy, and should not have his name drug through the mud for attempting to herd cats. I hate to have partially put him in this predicament.

This is the way it works for NWO.

We do our own thing - many of us already adhere to rough guidelines on attacking other people, but they are our personal guidelines and we don't impose them on anyone else in our clan, or outside of it.

Sometimes that leads to retaliation from other people/clans on members of our clan, and that's good and well. As long as they deserved it, the clan will probably not get involved. Unless of course it's excessive and/or other members WANT to get involved.

So, while you can make treatise with individual members, and can definitely talk to Poseidon about our clan's general mindset, trying to impose your rules upon us free-minded people will only be met with scorn and lashings.

I don't pretend to know what was going on in discussions, all I can say is THAT was the reason for the recent rash of attacks, and THAT makes you little better than Magier in my mind.

Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old

Real Name: Bay
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Message #13162 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 9:35 pm

I don't dislike posiedon, but facts are facts - he had a huge hand in causing this snafu.

I didn't have that information when we came up with the alliance; he did. But he behaved as though, like our SMs, he had the authority to speak for everyone in his clan. Making promises without the power to back them up is bad enough, but then not even bothering to tell his members he agreed to things on their behalf makes it seem like we're randomly imposing draconian standards from on high. After I told him we're open to amending things if it's not what his clan wants, he made no effort to amend or repeal the alliance, merely shrugged it off and let things continue as they would. Had he bothered to explain when I messaged him, this entire thing could have been avoided.

future dealings with NWO will probably be limited, but when they occur, I won't presume anyone speaks for the entire clan and limit diplomacy to individual members.

ETA: also, I strongly resent that comparison. We would never impose on anyone rules they didn't agree to at some point in time. We don't arbitrarily impose things on people. Poseidon agreed to the skirmishing rules, all we did was call you on not obeying them. If he never told you what they were, then I can't blame you for not following them, but would it have killed people to talk to me?

Last Edited: Sep 30, 2008, 9:54 pm

Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old

Message #13163 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 9:57 pm

It must have been a thursday, Poseidon never could get the hang of thursdays when the bi-monthly council meets to ratify the orders of the previous week by a standard vote in the case of strictly internal affairs, etc etc. I think you'll find he left the word 'sausage' out of his dictionary.

Hello and welcome to NWO, please take your goodie bag from the table complete with party whistle and lvl 5 addy golem. the hokey kokey starts in 5 minutes, thats what its all about.

i still think there is something yami is missing... but i can't quite put my finger on it.

please ignore this post as it is completely off topic and has <i>absolutely nothing to do with the price of fish whatsoever!!</i> ;-)

just a friendly curse, have a nice daey!

[edit] can we pleeeeese get back to talking about the SL in this thread now. bored with talk about who's clan structure works better for who. especially when everyone knows you shouldn't take sweets from strangers (edited down from a more politically apt statement) because they may not be who they say they are. we've never pretended to be anything we're not, well some of us might have but i wouldn't know. just because you never took the time to get to know us and just used us for your own political ends is not our fault. i know nothing of the internal structure of TOMU, but i wouldn't be incited if i found out that everything is voted on to its fullest and the losing faction follows the ruling despite thinking its a bad idea...anyway, now i really am rambling and should stop, especially when it comes to narrating that i should stop typing, its very bad practice and just makes things longer. Especially when i've stopped using paragraphs as this is just a short edit![/edit]

Last Edited: Sep 30, 2008, 10:14 pm

Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #13166 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 10:14 pm

Vanishing said:

It must have been a thursday, Poseidon never could get the hang of thursdays when the bi-monthly council meets to ratify the orders of the previous week by a standard vote in the case of strictly internal affairs, etc etc. I think you'll find he left the word 'sausage' out of his dictionary.

Hello and welcome to NWO, please take your goodie bag from the table complete with party whistle and lvl 5 addy golem. the hokey kokey starts in 5 minutes, thats what its all about.

i still think there is something yami is missing... but i can't quite put my finger on it.

please ignore this post as it is completely off topic and has <i>absolutely nothing to do with the price of fish whatsoever!!</i> ;-)

just a friendly curse, have a nice daey!

Yami - You see what I'm saying?

Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old

Message #13167 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 10:14 pm

Hey!

Posts: 1288
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Real Name: Bay
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Message #13169 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 10:27 pm

"just because you never took the time to get to know us and just used us for your own political ends is not our fault"

And this bullshit is why I'm sick to death of NWO.

Kaelas

Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old

Real Name: Barry

Message #13171 Posted: Sep 30, 2008, 10:28 pm

[edit] can we pleeeeese get back to talking about the SL in this thread now. bored with talk about who's clan structure works better for who.

Sure, please use this thread for NWO-ToMU talks:
http://www.muelsfell.com/world/map_community.php?msg=1017

Nanashi

Posts: 1115
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 120 years old
Clan: OTAKU

Message #13208 Posted: Oct 1, 2008, 1:48 am

So have any of the originals rules or conditions changed?

Sconibulus

Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old

Message #13209 Posted: Oct 1, 2008, 1:56 am

I believe there have been no rule changes, however we are delaying the start date until Saturday, October 5th, so as to give time for more signups, two clans aren't worth being called a league.