| Author | Thread: The Wall | Page 1 | 2 |
[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #1403 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 4:14 pm |
I had an idea about the wall last night in a similar vein to the one someone posted (Gryficus, maybe?) about having to destroy the wall entirely before raiding.
Rather than granting a defensive bonus as it does now, what if the wall actually absorbed a certain amount of damage per hit that would normally be dealt to the guarding golem?
An example with random numbers: a flesh behind a level 5 wall is hit for 20 hit points of damage by an attacker. The wall absorbs 2 pts per level from each hit, so the wall takes 10 pts of damage (2hp x lvl 5) and the golem takes the remaining 10 pts of damage.
If the wall takes too much damage, it falls a level, and can be destroyed entirely if it takes enough damage. The magus who owns the wall can repair it. Essentially the wall destruction would work just as the previous building destruction did, but the wall would be the only building that can be destroyed. A damaged or destroyed wall provides proportionally lower protection to further attacks.
If the golem takes enough damage to shut down, then it still shuts down even if the wall is intact and the attacking golem can raid.
This would mean that more advanced golems (eg, irons, or those with greater powersupplies and eyes, etc) will no longer be pummeled by a lesser guardian golem, but the guardian golem would actually stand to take lesser amounts of damage.
The TL;DR version: The wall would provide "damage reduction" rather than "defensive bonus" as it does now, and could be destroyed.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts on this. :)
Kep |
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CaduceusPosts: 185 Location: Last Alvia Dawning Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Paul
| Message #1404 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 4:43 pm |
| Seems pretty fair, and more realistic. Last Edited: Apr 17, 2008, 4:46 pm |
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| Daniel Posts: 102
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Daniel
| Message #1412 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 7:34 pm |
Mmm, Sounds like a good idea, I'd have to try it out myself before I could make any judgements though.
Brings up several interesting thoughts though. Some of them may/have already been listed before
Archer Golems on the Wall
'Custom' Walls (Stone/iron/Flesh) that confer a bonus or take damage in difference ways/cost different to maintain.
Traps! Who doesn't love 'em ? Damage shouldn't be too major but more like pitfalls and things to 'stop' rather than 'kill' opponents.
Meh, And while thinking about it, Glass golems seemed to have the upperhand versus iron golems when the iron's had major defensive bonuses, Wouldn't glass do MORE damage without the defensive bonuses in? Sure it'd be split between your golem and your wall, But your wall would fall pretty quickly wouldn't it?
Also on that note, How much hp per level are you thinking for walls?
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #1414 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 8:25 pm |
Buildings are currently set at 50hp per level, with the wall set at 75hp per level. This may or may not change if I decide to run with the new idea.
[Edit] Also, the golembane spikes would behave very differently under the new idea. Currently they add a sizeable defense bonus, but in the new system they would damage an attacker based on how much damage is absorbed by the wall (which also makes more sense than it is currently).
KepLast Edited: Apr 17, 2008, 8:27 pm |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #1415 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 8:26 pm |
| My only concern would be how much it costs to repair, and how easy it is to destroy. Walls are far from cheap anyway, but to have a level 10 wall destroyed would not only require a staggering cost to replace, but also quite a long time. If you have to spend thousands replacing it constantly most people will probably end up just going without, and if you were attacked a lot you probably wouldn't ever get past the first few levels anyway. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #1416 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 8:28 pm |
Costs to build the wall would come down if the new system goes in. At the very least, the money requirement would drop by a huge amount.
Kep |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #1417 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 8:30 pm |
yup that was me :D thanks for remembering. I like the tweaks you've made to the idea.
The only thing you haven't mentioned is how the spikes would work in this case, which I think should be a "thorns effect." for every 5 or 10 damage they do to the wall, they take 2 damage or something. |
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| Sterling Posts: 157
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #1421 Posted: Apr 17, 2008, 8:47 pm |
Sounds rather bad to me. This means that the defender really has no advantage other than more hitpoints. So I'll just have to wear away the defenders wall AND his golem - no big deal really, since I can repair my golem between each raid, and presumably unless the defender is there hitting refresh time after time, he's not going to be doing the same for his golem or wall.
Arkham, can you tell us what you're aiming at with PVP?
I think a good goal is - a reasonably prepped defender vs someone with similar levels (ie, a guy with equivalent level and equipped golems, and a wall that's say roughly equivalen to his magus level) suffers limited to no harm from having the attacker attack once, and will almost be 100% sure to survive a (full motivation) round of attacks from an attacker. That's kind of how it works at the moment, though with the way wall defenses scale, at the higher end it's just pointless to attack someone.
Why favor the defender so heavily? Because the attacker has many other advantages - picking when he attacks, especially when the defender may not be around for a long time, who he attacks, ganging up with his friends/multiaccounts, only attacking weaker targets, only attacking with a golem he considers expendable, etc.
Plus, a game tends to suffer when attackers have too much of an advantage - it leads to rampant griefing and the sort of game that attracts hackers/cheats rather than the sort that builds a stable player base. Don't believe me? Look at your average MMO - how heavily they prioritize PvE, especially in the early game. How much higher a percentage PvE serves are than PvP.
If you do want to go with the current plan, I'd suggest that you make sure that walls repair *very* cheaply, compared to the cost of repairing a golem, and that walls are thick enough to survive being attacked by at least one player burning out all his motivation on you, and probably more than one.
I think a better plan would be to make attacks on players take a minimum of 30 minutes to conduct, and perhaps even more with a higher wall. And then apply a rather limited bonus to the defender. Thus, a persistent attacker will do damage, but not be able to raid unless the defender is rather inattentive - plus open himself up to counter-raiding more than the current system.
Another idea would be to allow attackers to attack with no penalty whatsoever - BUT - the defender's golem is repaired in full by the government, or whatnot, and only resources are stolen.
Another would be to have a golem arena where people put up golems for combat, as I've mentioned before, thus letting people opt-in for PvP more. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #1497 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 2:45 pm |
A lot of that is just tweaking numbers, however. Changing the hp per level of the wall, changing the resistance of the wall to damage (IE, how much of those 10 hp from the example actually get through to do real damage to the wall), changing the cost of building the wall, changing the repair values.
A reasonably prepared defender suffering limited damage from a like-attacker IS a good goal. The problem is that the game has so many options that can really change a combat. Ideally what I want is people to make extra golems with the idea, "Okay, I'm prepared for situations X and Y, and I'll just have to keep an eye out in case I get hit by situation Z." And the fact that it takes teamwork to break down someone's defense (barring cases of lucky hits) is a good thing IMO.
I don't want to change that dynamic with this wall idea, so the numbers will be tweaked until the wall is still providing roughly the same level of protection as it does now.
The big difference will be in understanding the results. Right now, the wall adds a nebulous "percentage" and it's not especially clear why Iron Golem Arnold just got it's iron rear handed to it by Flesh Golem Gimpy. With the new system, I'm hoping the reason why an attacker didn't win will be much clearer. For example, "I didn't kill the Flesh because the wall absorbed most of the 100+ damage I dealt."
It's all just discussion at this point until I run some tests in dev anyway. :)
Kep |
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| Endovior Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #1516 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 5:34 pm |
| Hmm... if it takes that much damage/motivation from multiple attacks to break through a wall, does that mean that doing any missions in a day means nobody can get through your wall? |
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| Sterling Posts: 157
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #1564 Posted: Apr 20, 2008, 10:49 pm |
Doubtful, if you have a persistent attacker.
The first mission still means you can be attacked 6 times per hour - most people will burn out their full motivation on you with 12 attacks (72 motivation total, even if you're very near by) ie, they can still use up all their attacks in 2 hours.
If you do all the missions, then yes, they shouldn't be able to break your wall - whoopee, you've managed to protect yourself for 24 hours at the cost of 48 motivation.
of course, the attacker, after seeing that he can't attack a second time, can just pick a different target - very little cost for him, LOTS of cost for you to do missions. |
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| Amelsh Posts: 54
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #1572 Posted: Apr 21, 2008, 2:47 am |
| Personally, I do the missions, and I haven't noticed a terribly high cost. I get xp and +good points without needing to find someone else to attack and then needing to repair my golem afterwards. Sounds like a good deal to me. :) |
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TarodPosts: 12 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 125 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #4494 Posted: Jun 11, 2008, 7:40 pm |
I think first of all you need to visualize what is happening, to be able to make realistic mechanics.
Where is the defender golem? behind the wall, or above the wall? How is the wall giving the defender an advantage?
How can the atacker hit the golem behind the wall?
what if the atacker, or the defender, is using missile weapons? What if both?
If the wall is between atacker and defender, protecting the defender, how can the defender respond without damaging the wall?
Maybe the atacker first has to make a hole, and only later can start atacking the defender (and the defender responding). And then the hole can be repaired, but while its not repaired the wall doesnt stop more atackers. But hole or not, the wall wouldnt downgrade... |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #5350 Posted: Jun 24, 2008, 10:02 pm |
Realistic mechanics are not a top priority; due to the game being browser-based as well as fantasy-based, a lot of reality has to give way to playability and abstraction.
Incidently, it's supposed to be a barricade similar to concrete tank traps or dragon's teeth, rather than a castle wall. The graphic on the workshop page is more accurate than the one you see on the combat page. I have a lazy habit of calling it a wall all the time. Still, the new damage reduction aspect of the wall...er, barricade is certainly going to be an abstraction on some level.
And I'm actively working on and testing the changes first mentioned in this thread, so you should expect a wall change hopefully by the end of the week. Reduced costs to upgrade the wall will go in first, then the new barricade/spike mechanics.
Thus far, I've been pretty pleased with the how it works in testing, but of course the proof will be once you guys get to play with it. :)
Kep |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #5472 Posted: Jun 26, 2008, 4:20 pm |
The costs to upgrade the wall have now been reduced in anticipation of the upcoming wall defense changes.
[edit] - Barring any unforeseen complications or major bugs turning up during testing, the new wall mechanics will go live tomorrow (June 27th) or Saturday (June 28th).
KepLast Edited: Jun 26, 2008, 4:43 pm |
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| Trithemius Posts: 1
Location: Jinkara
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #5615 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 5:21 am |
I had a thought about how to visualize the new barricade mechanics for those of you who fear they're a bit too abstract. Think of the barricade as scattered artificial cover in the combat environment (much like the artificial cover used in paintball and laser tag arenas ie. low walls, occasional columns, fence-like barriers, etc.). A defending golem would be able to use that cover to his advantage in obvious ways (so totally eliminating a defense bonus to the defending golem wouldn't be neccesary considering the defender's superior knowledge of terrain) and an attacking golem would in turn continually strike any cover near it to afford itself better opportunity to attack.
It's neccesary to visualize this the same way one would a tabletop rpg (this is why I like Muelsfell so much ;D ). You wouldn't imagine a D&D character just standing around waiting for it's turn near it's party while orc swarms attacked continually. The best way to visualize a single roll in a turn is to imagine that the roll comes from a gap in the opponent's defense. One would imagine the two engaged in combat, continually trading blows that either miss or don't damage the opponent, a series of parries or strikes glancing off armor, etc. In similar fashion, a defending golem would have to expose itself in order to attack an attacking golem (though less so with a higher level barricade?) allowing the attacking golem to score hits as well.
This would even work with a archer golem defender versus a melee golem attacker. The archer would remain out of range of the attacker but the attacker could still destroy bits of the barricade, slowly eliminating the defender's cover. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #5641 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 5:45 pm |
That's not a bad way of looking at the function of the barricade. :)
Also, the the barricade changes are live, including the 'Destroy' option (though this will only damage the wall itself if successful).
Please report any problems and give feedback on the ease of destruction, repair costs, and protection of the new barricade.
Kep |
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| Trevalen Posts: 29
Location: Arzenbourg
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #5659 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 9:14 pm |
| I don't know if it was intended this way, but man, the new wall system makes attacking someone with spikes pretty much a suicide mission. I usually have my flesh2 golem (all clay2 limbs) attack Bone2 or Wood1 golems for alignment and xps and it is never a problem. They do damage and I do a little in return. Now, I go from a fully healthy golem to a golem almost losing multiple limbs and shutting down due to excessive damage in one combat. It's pretty hurty now. |
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| ExcessivelyRightiousBlossom Posts: 19
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 141 years old
| Message #5661 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 9:29 pm |
These walls work a lot better than the old ones! xp
Im doing way less damage in general... The golem I am using always had its damage hovering around 200 to the defender. Now it is down to 35 to the wall and 40 to my opponent O_O
And on the bug side of things:
"The wall took 222 dmg." <-This number is cumulative?
Also, 222 damage and still no break?
That was against Shagie's workshopLast Edited: Jun 28, 2008, 9:37 pm |
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 116 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #5662 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 9:51 pm |
| Okay, the new system is great, except for the part where I'm absolutely invincible now. :P |
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 116 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #5667 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 10:06 pm |
But in some degree of seriousness... It looks like the golem's Str doesn't apply if the damage is small enough to be completely soaked by the wall. Seeing as those higher levels walls soak pretty much ALL of the damage, it'd be pretty close to impossible to remove a well armored golem behind one.
If I'm mistaken, and the STR does apply, it still doesn't lend a minimum damage which has been what we've always had to turn to for fighter uber armor golems.Last Edited: Jun 28, 2008, 10:09 pm |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #5672 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 11:20 pm |
I'm going to have to agree.
The walls damage reduction either needs to be cut down severly, or it needs to be a CHANCE to reduce damage.
Right now they make pretty much anyone invincible with even just a flesh golem out. |
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sechsaugePosts: 6 Location: Jinkara Magus Age: 111 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #5673 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 11:29 pm |
I think on HIGHER Levels... the wall will be taken down very often.
If I understood the eyplaination... every Level of a
Level 20 Wall will have 90 LP... A golem that deals 100 Dmg will pull down one Level every sucessful hit !!
He will only deal 10 dmg to the golem.... but the wall will go down very fast. And I think a level 20 Wall will be quite expensive !
90 dmg to the Wall and you will have to rebuild that EXPENSIVE building which will take very much of your time !!
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Gruesse
sechsauge |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #5674 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 11:39 pm |
Sorry sechsauge but that is not the case. I don't know how much HP each level of a wall has, but I had to do over 200 to one in order to remove 1 level of a level 9 wall. Also, the max level for the barricade is 15 rather than 20.
The problem arises from putting a heavily armored golem behind the wall. As I understand it a golem will do an amount of damage which will then be reduced by the armor/resistance of whatever part of the golem it was attacking, any remaining damage will then be applied to the wall before it hits the golem behind it. When the golem you're attacking is an adamantine coated in heavy plate, you will do effectively no damage to anything almost regardless of what you're using.
Also, good luck finding a golem that does 100 damage per hit. Clan MAGIER has the hardest hitting golems in the realm with spiked chain equipped adamantine and they only do around 70-ish.
It seems to me that the wall is now better than it previously was. Nevermind that I was able to raise my wall 5 levels overnight almost as an afterthought with the cost and build time reductions. Last Edited: Jun 28, 2008, 11:40 pm |
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| Nageya Posts: 86
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 111 years old
| Message #5675 Posted: Jun 28, 2008, 11:54 pm |
| I like how the wall works, my problem with it is the total amount of damage I'm doing to the golem and wall combined is on avarge less then half as much as I did before the change, I think coyones is right and that the wall is doing some thing weird to minimum damage. Last Edited: Jun 28, 2008, 11:56 pm |
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