| Author | Thread: Using the Market as a "Safe House" for your resources |
| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #1451 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 5:29 pm |
Hey Ark, is there anything in the works to attempt to curb this tactic?
I've had someone attacking me, and when I go back to attack them and do some damage, they have no golem outside and all their shit in the market in unmakable trades.
It seems like this is something that needs to be regulated or stopped somehow as it leads to uncounterable, one-sided warfare.
I can't think of any game mechanics that would take care of this problem. It would probably have to be by message to you (or other mods, once the game is live). Then, what do you do? Do you just cancel the trades, or is there some sort of sanction? It's pretty obvious when people are doing this.
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| Marnen Posts: 63
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #1452 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 6:12 pm |
Seems to me like reporting this in a public forum is a bit irresponsible. Some people may not have thought of it and now the tactic is likely to be employed by more people.
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 123 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #1453 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 6:20 pm |
I don't know, I think it's occurred to most reasonable people. If your stuff's on the market table, there's not much a golem at your shop can do to steal it...
Hmm... That just made me think of an option to attack a person's market table. I imagine that would be one of those highly illegal things, sending a golem into a crowded market to smash a rival's stall. :P |
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| Daniel Posts: 102
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Daniel
| Message #1454 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 6:39 pm |
Meh, I don't want people crashing markets, Thats just wrong. THIS has been posted before, So no worries about giving anyone ideas.
I think Ark thought of the idea of attacking stalls too, I'm not going forum digging to find out if it was him, but I dislike this idea. The way I see it, There'd be more guards in the marketplace than there'd be at your own house after being attacked.
Market offers should be canceled if your workshop is raided (not attacked, Resources MUST be taken for market offers to be removed). |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #1461 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 7:37 pm |
I'm definitely going to do something about this.
Unfortunately, I've been really stuck for a reasonable solution. My first impulse was to have it raid first from the market resources, but it didn't make sense to me that a market of that size wasn't secure. Plus there's the whole issue of the golem suddenly grabbing stuff from half a world away.
I think I may have to ignore the "logic" of the solution and just cancel resource offers from the market if a golem successfully raids. Seems the simplest fix, even if it's not a perfect one by far.
Kep |
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #1462 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 7:41 pm |
| Consider the market as a somewhat more advanced Auction House - our offers DO expire, so this makes sense. Yes, in a bazaar, how the heck can the golem steal it. If I am selling a writ of consignment at auction, pfft - my warehouse remains wide open. |
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| Amelsh Posts: 54
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #1464 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 8:01 pm |
| Maybe you can say the resources are actually still at your workshop, but have been moved to another area so they can be easily transported when sold. Then they'd be vulnerable to raids. Last Edited: Apr 18, 2008, 8:02 pm |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #1465 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 8:02 pm |
| Or you could put in some sort of penalty-you forfeit 10% of your (primary resource only) goods if they don't sell. Not sure this is that great an idea, but thought I'd throw out an alternative at least. |
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ZugZugPosts: 300 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 125 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #1467 Posted: Apr 18, 2008, 9:28 pm |
| Marnen said:
Seems to me like reporting this in a public forum is a bit irresponsible. Some people may not have thought of it and now the tactic is likely to be employed by more people.
Hi, and welcome to Beta testing, where the idea is not to be the best, most kick-ass magus around but to report gameplay issues and bugs before the game goes live.
My $0.02 is to limit the number of trades a person can have going at 1 time AND limiting the max size of a single trade. If a person can only have say 5 open trades and each trade is capped at say 2500 of the resource then some stuff would most likely be protected but some stuff would not be. |
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PeggaPosts: 702 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 128 years old Clan: ADV | Message #1472 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 12:11 am |
| ZugZug said:
My $0.02 is to limit the number of trades a person can have going at 1 time AND limiting the max size of a single trade. If a person can only have say 5 open trades and each trade is capped at say 2500 of the resource then some stuff would most likely be protected but some stuff would not be.
You know, I think that this is workable. Limit the trade that you can put ON the market to what size offer you could ACCEPT.
For example, I've got the 2500 wagon. I was able to put 20k of bone up for 10k of adamantine. If that was an offer already on the market, I wouldn't be able to complete it, so it doesn't make much sense that I could make that offer in the first place. |
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| Kaelas Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 124 years old
Real Name: Barry
| Message #1481 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 4:08 am |
Just change the wording for the description of the market to say that you've posted a advertisement for a sale instead of actually crating up the goods and putting them on a table.
That way it makes sense that raiding golems could still steal goods posted for sale (because they're still at you workshop, just tagged for delivery). Then set the programs (or whatever the proper word is, I'm only vaguely coding familiar) to allow raids to subtract both storehouse goods and goods tagged for trades. And have a report sent to the raided party stating if a trade becomes impossible because enough resources were stolen to make you unable to fulfill the trade.
The only issue I see this explanation bringing up is should "tagged for trades" goods be counted towards your max storage, unlike it is now. |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #1482 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 4:57 am |
I think we have a winner:
Kaelas said:
Just change the wording for the description of the market to say that you've posted a advertisement for a sale instead of actually crating up the goods and putting them on a table.
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| Tidalshot Posts: 37
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #1488 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 1:04 pm |
Allowing raiding of market trades before the homegrown warehouse (or at all for that matter) is a bad idea.
This will allow people to "hold down" others growth and ability to recover from bad circumstances. Once the person's defense falls for the first time, they will never recover again because people can continue to raid again and again.
All offers on the market become shopping lists for raiders to decide who has what resources and who to raid first. This will kill the market and no one will trade. |
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| deathpunk Posts: 154
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 124 years old
| Message #1489 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 1:12 pm |
| You could just stop people from canceling market offers. It would stop people from just dumping resources in and then taking them back out once whoever they pissed off got bored. Or you could just introduce a small fee to put offers in. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #1493 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 2:19 pm |
Tidalshot makes some good points.
Limiting offers to what your can normally accept is a good idea, but it's likely not enough to be a single solution. I'm out of town this weekend, but will change this when I get back.
Kep |
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PeggaPosts: 702 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 128 years old Clan: ADV | Message #1501 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 2:53 pm |
| deathpunk said:
You could just stop people from canceling market offers. It would stop people from just dumping resources in and then taking them back out once whoever they pissed off got bored. Or you could just introduce a small fee to put offers in.
Not being able to cancel orders would be a bad thing, potentially. If I put up a set of ruby eyes for 24 money instead of 2400, I'd be really upset if I couldn't cancel it. It might be workable if there is a time that the order could be changed (15 minutes or so), but I think that would be a lot more work to program. Something simple like the advertisements or only offers of wagon size would be better.
In regards to the advertisements, anybody ever watch the cattle auctions on TV? I forget what channel, but its like a home shopping network for ranchers. The point to this is that the cattle aren't sitting in a market somewhere either. The new owner has to come pick them up. So, the advertisement thing in the market is realistic. Just thought I'd throw that in. |
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| Enoch Posts: 43
Location: Dethsfell Rest
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #1504 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 3:45 pm |
Problem is though, what about people making genuine trades? Or benevolent players selling their maxed resources at a dirt cheap cost(i.e my selling of 2500 sets of resources for 100 money). Granted this is a rather dog eat dog oriented world. But it seems a bit silly to make a work around that punishes everyone.
Then again I could just remember that life isn't fair. |
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| Amelsh Posts: 54
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #1509 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 4:39 pm |
| Maybe the best thing would be to just have goods on sale stay in the workshop storage until they're actually sold. That would be fair, I think, because they could potentially be raided but also protected - same as usual. That would prevent exploiting the market to protect resources. |
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| Endovior Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 124 years old
| Message #1515 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 5:27 pm |
The best counter to this tactic is probably building destruction; just smash the 'offenders' workshop to bits. With no resources in stock and no golem in front, he's easy pickings.
Of course, I do note that putting your resources on the market IS the best defense currently existing if your golem happens to be destroyed while you're working. I do suggest that golem-switching should be allowed at this time; it makes little sense to be able to engage in complicated market transactions but not be able to defend your base.Last Edited: Apr 19, 2008, 5:28 pm |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #1519 Posted: Apr 19, 2008, 7:03 pm |
| Tidalshot said:
Allowing raiding of market trades before the homegrown warehouse (or at all for that matter) is a bad idea.
This will allow people to "hold down" others growth and ability to recover from bad circumstances. Once the person's defense falls for the first time, they will never recover again because people can continue to raid again and again.
All offers on the market become shopping lists for raiders to decide who has what resources and who to raid first. This will kill the market and no one will trade.
That is no longer the case with the protection option for using motivation. |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #1526 Posted: Apr 20, 2008, 1:12 am |
| Endovior said:
The best counter to this tactic is probably building destruction; just smash the 'offenders' workshop to bits. With no resources in stock and no golem in front, he's easy pickings.
Maybe putting a limited form of workshop destruction back in. So if you're golem attempts to raid and can't find any resources to steal it trashes the place up a bit. That should limit people hiding all their resources on the market but it won't give people the option to smash someone's hard work all the way back down to level one. |
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| Tidalshot Posts: 37
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #1550 Posted: Apr 20, 2008, 12:46 pm |
| That is no longer the case with the protection option for using motivation.
Your missing the point. Even with only 1 attack per hour a person cannot recover when their defense is down.
Resource gathering is based per hour, if the market is not secure, the defender cannot use the market to get any resource they need to build anything when the raider will raid every hour. The defender will be stuck at their own hidden room protection amount and will be static forever. No Advancement possible. Game over. |
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| Kaelas Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 124 years old
Real Name: Barry
| Message #1559 Posted: Apr 20, 2008, 9:25 pm |
A somewhat complex addition to my previous idea:
If you attack someone with offers on the market and your golem can can carry more than is available non-tagged for trade, the attacker is given the choice of stealing the tagged goods as well or they can go home with less than a max haul.
But, if you do choose to steal the tagged goods the Market penalizes the attacker somehow- maybe banning you from trading at all for a time period.
Or there is a certain chance that the Market will send their Repo-Golem to get the tagged goods they were supposed to be able to trade. Or they send a Fine Collector or ... something.
Combine this with the Offer Limit=Accept Limit and I think that equalizes things for both sides.
Last minute thought, have the Market's protection response be something you have to pay for (not sure what would be fair, depends on what Market response is used) on either a per trade basis or per time period. And have it so the attacker can't tell if the defender has the protection until the response hits them (if it does). |
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| Elsworth Posts: 93
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #1585 Posted: Apr 21, 2008, 9:27 am |
There is a limit to the amount of trades you can have on the markets at any one time. I found that out recently...
10 for Non-premium
25 for Premium irc
Cheers, |
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