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Index » Muelsfell Game Forum » Clan Discussions Muelsfell World v1.0 Forums
AuthorThread: Selling Clan Items
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[ADMIN] Arkham
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Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 110 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
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Message #19192 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 12:46 am
I've been pondering this for awhile now and figured it's time to open up a discussion on it. IF this happens, it will NOT be soon, and IF this happens, it will be after the market revamp.

What are everyone's thoughts on making ALL clan items sellable on the market?

This process would be like so: An authorized person in a clan designates a clan item from the warehouse or a golem from the depot as being "For Sale." The market considers this an item being sold by the clan itself, and so money/resources/exchanges would be deposited directly into the clan warehouse (the person making the offer does not get the money/etc -- the clan does). This would mean that transmuted golems and clan items -- weapons, including the nasty stuff like cannons, six-demon bags, and spiked chains -- would be usable by anyone in the game who had one.

As an aside, spell specialization clans would get a new magic item (such as a spellcasting runestone or amulet) so that they, too, could have something to sell.

A clan could, of course, choose not to sell anything. And another could choose to sell everything. And items that get on the market could then be put up again on the market by the new owner.

What are your thoughts? Would this be a fun and exciting change? Would this undermine the uniqueness and importance of clans?

Discuss. :)

Kep

PS - Note that items that were NOT put up for sale would still act as they do now -- for example, they'd return to the clan warehouse if a golem loses them, etc.
Malakor
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Posts: 70
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 101 years old
Clan: OASIS
Real Name: Liam
Email: liamkembleyoung@googlemail.com
Message #19194 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 12:58 am
i think it would be kind of a neat idea, but my only reservation is that it might undermine the uniqueness of clan specialisation.
would be good to see what others think of this.
CommComms
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Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 106 years old
Message #19199 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 1:25 am
I think that in principle this is a good idea.

I like the idea that it is possible for any player to get their hands on any item in the game.

But... I do like that people can feel special because people in their clan are the only ones who can use item X. I'm having a difficult time reasoning out in my head that the high-end clan items would get spread around too much given how long they take to build and that clans would likely charge ridiculous prices for them.

So, overall I gotta say it sounds like a good call.

Maybe throw in more storage space upgrades now that I'll feel the need to get at least one of everything.
laidan
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Posts: 1158
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: OASIS
Message #19200 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 1:33 am
Would the recently purchased items be combat-dropable? Would make sense, but might be kinda harsh! I also foresee really high costs, but that only makes sense.
Yamikuronue
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Real Name: Bay
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Message #19205 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 2:37 am
I think it's a very good idea because it encourages relations between different clans that don't have to do with breaking clan golems.
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 102 years old
Message #19206 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 2:40 am
Well, or relations that have everything to do with breaking golems. "Gimme a demon bag so I can blow up a golem! I'll give you a cannon so you can do the same."

As far as the idea goes, I think it is a good one, but maybe should show up after a much more flexible permissions system.
Last Edited: Dec 7, 2008, 2:42 am
Vanishing
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Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 109 years old
Message #19236 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 12:24 pm
How about if clan items degraded over time/use. Perhaps repairable for free in the clan workshop but nowhere else. This'd keep the market from becoming saturated as well as providing repeat business for item repairs/replacement...

It would also keep clans from building a huge stockpile of items that they have no way of getting rid of and would make surplus items for sale an expensive rarity rather than being as common as armour or powersources.
pangon
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Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 107 years old
Message #19241 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 1:58 pm
This undermine the uniqueness and importance of clans.
DemonDurai
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Posts: 92
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 97 years old
Message #19253 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 3:31 pm
pangon said:

This undermine the uniqueness and importance of clans.


It could just be that only some of the clan items is availble to sell on the market. This would help to act as a balance and preserve a clan uniqueness at the same time.

DD
Last Edited: Dec 7, 2008, 7:10 pm
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 102 years old
Message #19254 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 3:32 pm
I dislike the idea of item degradation, the item saturation will be based on the amount clans are willing to sell, and I'd assume that items can still be destroyed, and that, if dropped, they won't return to the selling clan, but instead vanish into the aether, or drop onto the ground.
[ADMIN] Arkham
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Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 110 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
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Message #19274 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 5:36 pm
Once an item is sold by a clan, it would behave just like any "regular" item: can be lost, scavenged, resold, clan records would no longer track it, etc.

Keep the thoughts coming, please. :)

Kep
DemonDurai
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Posts: 92
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 97 years old
Message #19291 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 7:19 pm
Hmmnn I can already see certain loopholes in this market, in which sovereigns of large clans could potential abuse this for their own personal wealth. I usually think of all posibilities (;

DD
Yamikuronue
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Location: Mottonsborough
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Real Name: Bay
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Message #19293 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 7:29 pm
Perhaps someone should band together against them in that case, to reign in their political and economic influence somewhat... ;P
CommComms
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Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 106 years old
Message #19294 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 7:35 pm
If you see loopholes then perhaps you should point them out and explain them? Half the purpose of this thread is nailing loopholes or abuses before they're abused.

I guess SMs could sell a clan weapon to themselves on the cheap, then resell it on the market for lots of money that would go to them instead of the clan.

Doesn't seem like too much of a problem to me, but fixed by disallowing selling of clan weapons to clan members.
DemonDurai
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Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 97 years old
Message #19308 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 8:55 pm
CommComms said:

If you see loopholes then perhaps you should point them out and explain them? Half the purpose of this thread is nailing loopholes or abuses before they're abused.



Following up and what you said.

Person X has two accounts A and B.
A is part of a clan and B is a loner or a member of another clan.
B puts an offer on the market for a clan item at 1 gold coin.
A sells him the item.
B sells the item back on the market for what it is normally worth.
B transfer money to A.

If you block clan items to be sold to accounts on the same IP. You can still get pass that or use a very trusty friend(;

DD

Last Edited: Dec 7, 2008, 9:09 pm
CommComms
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Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 106 years old
Message #19315 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 9:23 pm
I'm well aware that almost any restriction can be gotten around if you try hard enough. By putting in a coordinated effort the clan could generate a large amount of gold for one of its members. They could do the same thing by telling every member to donate any gold to a person rather than to the warehouse.
DemonDurai
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Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 97 years old
Message #19317 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 9:34 pm
CommComms said:

They could do the same thing by telling every member to donate any gold to a person rather than to the warehouse.


That could work, but that would just create mutiny, ill feeling and distrust among the members. Has a sovereign ever done that?

DD
Last Edited: Dec 7, 2008, 9:35 pm
Elsworth
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Posts: 93
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 97 years old
Message #19320 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 9:45 pm
So make clan items only 'sellable' once or from the clan... If you cannot on-sell clan items it takes away certain abuses...

Seeing that clans would make the sales so they don't undermine their own advantages, I'm all for it...

But putting HQ limits on selling stuff to avoid people creating a clan and then selliing stuff to themselves...
Daryoon
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Posts: 174
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 107 years old
Message #19323 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 9:56 pm
Elsworth said:

So make clan items only 'sellable' once or from the clan... If you cannot on-sell clan items it takes away certain abuses...

Seeing that clans would make the sales so they don't undermine their own advantages, I'm all for it...

But putting HQ limits on selling stuff to avoid people creating a clan and then selliing stuff to themselves...


But if they lose it in combat and someone else picks it up then it's fair game again, you would have to stop this as well to support that rule.
Nanashi
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Posts: 1115
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 105 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #19330 Posted: Dec 7, 2008, 11:36 pm
Also don't forget that there is a restriction already in place to prevent abuse from the same/similar IP addresses. In that both accounts must be premium in order for the two to trade, or for the second to join a clan.

And as far as I know the market doesn't allow you to sell something to yourself. The clan item would be tagged with the name of the player offering it, even if the price goes direct to the clan.
Halftea
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Location: Darghelm
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Clan: ADV
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Message #19503 Posted: Dec 9, 2008, 1:02 pm
Hmmm. Maybe to try and keep the Clans distinct, and still allow sales, limit what items the Clan can sell by nothing over what half of their Library level is. Kind of the way secondaries work now.
Tzadkiel
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Posts: 596
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 109 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #19515 Posted: Dec 9, 2008, 3:06 pm
The halvsies idea seems like a good compromise. I believe it dilutes the uniqueness, but I also believe we need to inject something into the market.
[ADMIN] Arkham
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Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 110 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #19691 Posted: Dec 10, 2008, 10:56 pm
Any more thoughts? It seems most thus far have been in favour of it (perhaps with additional restrictions).

If this were to go in, nobody from the clan would be able to buy an item/golem that's for sale by their clan. Once the item is sold, it could be resold/lost/etc, so yes, someone could sell it to a non-clan member, then buy it back.

Someone could also potentially put together a transmuted iron homunculus, give it a bronze cannon, a spiked chain, a tower shield, an improved voidstone, and an amulet with the Flying Anvil spell on it. THAT would be a freaking tough cookie.

These are the sorts of things that make me hesitant. Then again, that monster of a golem isn't going to be cheap nor easy to complete, and could still be destroyed and its parts lost or scavenged if the owner wasn't careful. And it'd open a whole new dimension of opportunity for clans and individuals alike. Disadvantages and advantages.

I do like the idea of limiting what a clan could sell by halves. That'd mean the truly good stuff wouldn't be common, and anything that requires a Level 10+ Clan Library would never make the market.

Some good thoughts thus far. Won't be my next project, that's for certain. :)

Kep
FatherCoyne
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Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 102 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
Message #19698 Posted: Dec 11, 2008, 12:05 am
This suits my aesthetics pretty well. Overall, I think the quality of drama would be enhanced by this added freedom, struggles to keep your specialties special, balanced against the benefits of sharing with allies and wealthy rivals. ^^ (That, and I so dearly miss my clay->bone transmutes. T_T)

Seems like you would want a separate permission to be able to sell a clan item than to be able to simply check it out. Archduke seems to be the point where we hand over most of the abilities to screw the clan over (kick everyone out and steal all the golems), so adding "Pawn the clan's secret weapons" there seems relatively harmless.

Running an open clan wouldn't really be feasible otherwise... It would also make it easier to keep a non-proliferation policy going if you can easily control who has the ability to leak items.
Denerid
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Posts: 279
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 104 years old
Message #19739 Posted: Dec 11, 2008, 10:30 am
Coyne's right, there needs to be a separate permission for this... but the SMs also need the ability to customize the permissions by ranks, and possibly even create more tiers of ranks. Trying to figure out which rank should have permission to sell off clan items ignores the real problem that the current, flat permission structure isn't sufficient.
 
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