| Author | Thread: The clan spell system |
| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #20066 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 3:05 am |
So we at WISE are the main proponents of clan spells in muelsfell and after having reviewed them over the past week and some, we have come to several conclusions.
As it stands, there is currently not one clan spell which we consider worth the cost of casting (with the possible exception of bless, which still has the problem of being unavailable to a proportion of the clan). There are two main barriers to clan spells being useful, cost and implementation.
The clan spells cost motivation as per personal spells, but often the motivation cost is prohibitively expensive and only confers a modest benefit. Spells such as flying anvil (which aside from cost looks to be useful once it is debugged from pvp) cost a level 14 player 25% of their total motivation, or approximately 40xp. This is considered by the majority of our clan to be to expensive and better off without. An even better example, as I think flying anvil is only minorly disadvantaged, is the spell animate dead. For the low low price of 40 motivation and 3 primary slots (for the prerequisite spells which aren't that useful) you can create a level 1 bone golem. That's approximately 70 potential xp, I'm doing away with to create a low level golem. I for one would never cast it. This is in contrast to other clan specialisations which require a few 1000 of various primary and secondary resources to create an item which the clan gets to keep pretty much forever, barring golem destruction. Spells on the other hand cost what amounts to xp and last at most a day.
The second problem is basically that the spells aren't worth casting in lieu of alternatives, primarily elephant's strength. Because only one spell can be cast on a golem at once, a clan spell is only going to be used if it is more beneficial, or provides a different advantage. None of the clan spells really do that. Two spells, deathstrike and holy smite, do surpass elepant's strength, but their problem is that they are limited to a specific subset of targets, namely living or undead monsters. These spells are almost entirely targeted for pve, only having a tiny number of targets for pvp, especially deathstrike. So, to reiterate, their are no clan spells that are really worth casting instead of elephant's strength. Further, there are several spells which are useful to only a certain type of golem, such as wood, bone or stone. This basically requires an entire clan to privilege one golem type over another, basically providing no benefit to members who don't specialise in those golems. I would think that spells such as these would be much better suited as personal spells as an individual can choose spells that suit their golem specialisation.
So my suggestions/hopes: That clan spells get converted to something like runestones which we can place in our golems and which cost resources instead of motivation. So that they aren't overpowered, perhaps give them a use limit like the teleport scroll (I would think this would be easier to do than keep time limits on them.) Further, that a clan spell could stack with a personal spell, giving members of spell clans to have two spells on their golems, where the benefits of spells overlaps, only the higher benefit applies (so that a golem with deathstrike and elephant's strength, gets only +40 strength, not +75).
Note: For publicity purposes, any good points in this post are prducts of clan discussion and any bad points belong to this deluded mind only ;) |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #20069 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 3:26 am |
| In our examinations, it occurs to us that the main issue is having prerequisite spells. In our primary, ranged weapons, you don't *have* to select the crossbow in order to get the bronze cannon - but good spells cost not only library researches, but also effectively cost more than one research slot. For secondary specs, that ensures doubly that we'll never get anything truly useful. I don't like that it works that way with personal spells either, since you only get a few slots, but at least there's the analogy of library research trees. For clans? It makes no sense. Just make better spells be at higher library levels and that's that. |
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| Dedd Posts: 302
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #20084 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 11:00 am |
I whole heartedly agree with Panacea (probably for obvious reasons.
It simply comes down to the following:
- as it stands, the clan spell system is almost entirely useless, since all spells are bettered by personal spells which anyone can have. |
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IcefallPosts: 29 Location: Shilo Steppe Magus Age: 110 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20094 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 3:48 pm |
| I agree with Panacea in this matter. The current clan spell system is completely useless it grants spell clans almost no advantages at all. Other clans with different specializations all get their own unique adavantages. The idea of permanent or semi-permanent items like runes is an excellent idea I think they should be implemented as a type of item. I believe there should be different types of runes. Permanent runes should be something only spell clans can make like weapons and they will cost in materials and not motivation, this will be the advantage for spell clans like the advantages granted to other clans. I think it should be made possible for anyone to make semi-permanent runes that has a limited number of uses with a combination of materials and motivation. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20104 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 6:36 pm |
I'd meant to type up something similar, but hadn't gotten around to it. I agree with the previous posters for the most part. Flying anvil is fine I think though, it's really not a spell you want casually used in PvP as it's pretty vicious. Much better as an expensive revenge, similar in purpose to 6/8 demon bags in my opinion.
But for the rest, I haven't found one I'm particularly interested in casting either. It does rather seem like some personal and clan spells could be swapped. Runestones could also be interesting, like you said. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #20105 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 6:48 pm |
Bear in mind that spells have only been live for ten days. I haven't made ANY tweaks or refinements other than bug fixes.
Motivation cost and spell/level requirements are all trivial for me to adjust.
I've been extra careful with clan spells for one very big reason: when a clan chooses a spell, then *everyone* in that clan has immediate access to the spell. One mage casting a spell that's overpowered can likely be overlooked, but twenty mages with access to a spell that is even slightly overpowered can potentially be a big problem.
Still, my goal is to have clan spells more desirable than the non-clan ones. Tweakage is sure to be had. For starters, I very likely will remove spell reqs for clan spells, leaving only level reqs.
Kep |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20108 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 7:05 pm |
My main issue so far, since I don't really use spells much anyway, now that I've tested a few out, is that they seem to provide yet another reason that a big defender is a liabilty.
Let's say I'm Caduceus and I've got Atlas out, armored up to withstand an assault from just about anything. Along comes Jo-nobody from WISE, carrying an anvil. Atlas wails on Jo's inconsequential wood golem for a while, then the anvil comes down, tearing off a level 5 iron arm and hand, and the associated iron plates, costing thousands (10s of thousands?) in repairs and replacement costs. Jo does his repairs, costing a few thousand wood, and proceeds to do this to 15 other people. Jo proceeds to donate everything in his shop to the clan, throw out a level 1 flesh defender with no arms, and watch as noone can do anything about it.
I'm not saying necessarily that the spell is overpowered, it is one of the few I might someday use from the current list. I even like the fact that it adds a potential threat to high level players from low level ones. But this does seem to be a continuing (growing) issue for PvP.
/rant
Edit: Nothing against Caduceus, just reaching for a name most people might know for demonstration purposes. Nothing against WISE either, just picking a clan with spells. Jo-nobody on the other hand is a jerk.Last Edited: Dec 15, 2008, 7:06 pm |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20110 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 7:10 pm |
Good to know:) On that topic, I suspect flying anvil might actually be overpowered. Only chest/abdomen/pelvis can survive a hit from it right now, and those only at higher levels. As far as I know there's no way to avoid or lessen it either. It's a little tricky though because if it's too much weaker it's not really worth the cost. In my opinion anyway.
Also the specialized golem type spells(that is, only effective if cast on wood or whatever) I think are a much better for personal spells than clan spells. I believe Panacea mentioned that, but I think it bares repeating. Alignment you could probably get away with, but a golem type is so specific, and the number of slots is so limited, especially for secondary focuses, that I can't imagine any clans taking them.. |
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| mardoc Posts: 33
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #20114 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 8:08 pm |
| Necaria said I suspect flying anvil might actually be overpowered
well it does about 90 damage for its 25 motivation casting cost, i would suggest my bone golem can do me a much better value 2000 damage (at least) for the same motivation.
Iaidan said Let's say I'm Caduceus and I've got Atlas out, armored up to withstand an assault from just about anything
as far as im concerned there is no such thing as a golem that can stand an assualt from just about anything, there isnt a golem in muelsfell that cant be destroyed in under (probably quite a lot under as well) 10 attacks using the right golem's (exluding those set up to be disabled).
As for spells, lets not forget that as ark has said they havent been live for long and are probably due a fair amount of tweaking so lets not be too critical, I would be making a statement of my opinions on spells but im ill so it'll have to wait. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20116 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 8:44 pm |
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well it does about 90 damage for its 25 motivation casting cost, i would suggest my bone golem can do me a much better value 2000 damage (at least) for the same motivation.
It does about 90 damage ignoring the barricade to a single location(likely destroying it) every attack, and it lasts for 8 hours. And you've invested just shy of 5000 xp in your bone golem, so it's hardly an ideal comparison. Also there's always the chance your golem could be disabled or destroyed, whereas the anvil happens as long as combat lasts 3 rounds. And finally, if you look around on the board, I've expressed my opinion on golem strength enhancements, especially on bone golems too, stating that it's rather extreme:P |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20117 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 9:06 pm |
Not to mention that it adds that to the ridiculous damage your bone golem can already do :)
And of course no golem can withstand repeated assaults, that's a given, but a well armored high level golem generally can withstand a single attack from just about anything, even without much of a wall unless it gets unlucky. Or hit with an anvil now. |
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| mardoc Posts: 33
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #20118 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 9:28 pm |
| yeah ok, fair enough i see your respective points. I doubt ill be using it tho, i can think of better things to do with 25 motivation besides you could use a six or nine demon bag to do the same thing (ok maybe not focused on a single location) without using any extra motivation and ok they do cost resources to make, i suppose it boils down to what value people put on motivation or rather potential xp (literally if you were to sell some of your xp how much would you want for it?). With regards to strength enhancement yeah you are absolutely right it is rediculous, min damage makes armour uterly pointless and makes most golem pariculary those which should be the best defenders (clay, iron, stone and adamantine) totally vunerable and actually worse at defending than weaker golems (flesh) i dont know much about how the combat mechs work but i do wonder how resistance and min damage relate with each other |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20122 Posted: Dec 15, 2008, 10:22 pm |
| I think what we need is a "Roadrunner Charm" which automatically turns an anvil back on the launcher :) |
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| Panacea Posts: 167
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #20128 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 12:16 am |
I agree that flying anvil is probably one of the least overpowered spells and would require only minor tweakage compared to some of the other spells, so it's sort of a bad example for the current limitations of spells. I was more making the point that elephant's strength is cheaper in cost and I probably do more damage per attack with it. That being said though, if I wanted to farm the giant, I'd probably be using flying anvil.
The idea of permanent runestones is an interesting idea but it seems to me that spells can give a pretty big advantage and having them active permanently could overpower them, although I'm basing this on comparisons to the old system of only sometimes hitting with weapons. So I think runestones with charges may be a better way to go, or maybe even a combination of the two, with permanent runestones having a much higher cost.
Ithink we also have to bear in mind that these are all low level spells, and there are several items in other clan specialisations which were low level and not so good. So it may be that there are some totally kickass spells waiting to be implemented.
Just to clarify, my main two hopes for spells would be that a clan spell is stackable with a personal spell (one of each shouldn't allow too much overpowering) and that there are no spell prequisites, which ark is already considering so huzzah. These are closely followed by a resource cost rather than motivation. |
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| DemonDurai Posts: 92
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 112 years old
| Message #20166 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 6:18 am |
I agree with Arkham, because people seem to be overlooking the long term requirement of motivation cost. What seems to be an issue now won't be much of a problem one day in the future.
Magus' Level, XP Required for Next level, Motivation Recovery, Actual Motivation Due to Leveling, Can Be Increased to...
250 5000 1pt / 1 min 850 1000
What if Arkham give more advantage to spell and they become overpower even more? Just imagine the possibilities... what would happen if most of the magus in Wise spell clan was near this level in the future, decide to pick a fight with someone. God help us... the horror.....frightening...nightmare...don't want to think about...Armageddon...be very afraid..YOU HAVE BEEN WARN.
DD |
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| Denerid Posts: 279
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #20169 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 6:47 am |
| ... ? How does that argument help anything? At high level, they'll have more motivation. No kidding. So will... everyone else. |
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| Dedd Posts: 302
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #20174 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 8:38 am |
I think the point may have been missed somewhere along the way... namely that at present there is no reason to desire to be in a spell based clan.
All other forms of clans provide you with something to gain once you join (and use some resources) whereas you will find that the clan spells are no better than your own so have no reason to use them. I am not sure tweaking, with the exception of major changes such as no motivation costs for clan spells, or stackable on personal clan spells (which is effectively what all other clans offer minus the word "spell"), would help.
You don't need to add clan spells that are overpowering (I agree this would cause problems), just a reason to use a clan spell over a personal one.
The secondary class of clan goes some way to fixing this but since the slots for those are limited, you will always be at a disadvantage.Last Edited: Dec 16, 2008, 8:39 am |
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| DemonDurai Posts: 92
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 112 years old
| Message #20175 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 8:55 am |
| Denerid said:
... ? How does that argument help anything? At high level, they'll have more motivation. No kidding. So will... everyone else.
*shaking head* It is not that hard to imagine the scenario
Ok imagine if the usage of flying anvil or a spell with more power than Elephant cost just 5 motivation right now. At such a high level that will what it will virtually be like. It is nothing worry about because it is currently a bit costly even for Laidan (; I think Arkham is looking at the future rather than the present. I agree with Dedd, spell specialist have to just bide their time
DDLast Edited: Dec 16, 2008, 9:01 am |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #20211 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 4:04 pm |
The alignment based spells looked quite powerful, an accuracy bonus and +5 strength over elephant at reduced motivational cost? Yes they only work on PvE monsters, other spells clans, or what is probably the most dangerous type of golem, but still, struck me as incredibly useful. Also, having this spell might well free up your personal spells for use with elemental damage, which is quite useful when it works properly : () )
Field of blades also seems a good spell, 40 extra damage through armour, and about 150 without. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #20219 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 5:07 pm |
There are definitely good spells on the clan list, make no mistake. Field of Blades, Wall of Shadows, Flying Anvil, and Life Leech are all very good spells for their purpose.
I also found Expedient Sandstone to be one heck of a good spell during testing, but I realize that's going to be a matter of preference.
The crux of it is if you're looking to up the damage on your golem, then why join a spell clan when you can get Elephant Strength and an elemental damage spell without being in a clan? Though there's more to spells than simply damage, it's a valid question.
I think as more spells are released, variety increases, and spells are tweaked, the value of joining a spell clan will only increase.
First tweaks will likely be to Elephant Strength and Animate Dead, with some motivation improvements to golem-specific spells.
Kep |
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ZugZugPosts: 300 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 119 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20266 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 10:05 pm |
| So my suggestions/hopes: That clan spells get converted to something like runestones which we can place in our golems and which cost resources instead of motivation. So that they aren't overpowered, perhaps give them a use limit like the teleport scroll (I would think this would be easier to do than keep time limits on them.) Further, that a clan spell could stack with a personal spell, giving members of spell clans to have two spells on their golems, where the benefits of spells overlaps, only the higher benefit applies (so that a golem with deathstrike and elephant's strength, gets only +40 strength, not +75).
I really, really like the idea of a limited use runestone that can be equipped to grant it's bonus. Or maybe they can be like ranged weapons. Spell clans could get free access to a wand which would be loaded with a scroll that had a certain number of uses. The scroll would be a useable version of the spell learned. You could even make different levels of wands with different ranges. This would keep spell clans spending about the same resources as any other clan as well as allow lower level clan members to take advantage of the spells. It would also allow personal spells to still be used. This idea would only work for golem-based spells, but I still like it. |
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