| Author | Thread: The flesh golem defense |
laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20240 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 7:44 pm |
So, some people may have noticed my fresh round of complaining about flesh golems being the best defensive option for higher level players. You know why this works, and I think there are others out there who agree that it doesn't make sense for it to be the best option. So, suggestions on how to fix it without hosing newbies? Some thoughts I had in no particular order:
1- A score penalty if you're over say 10th level and defend using a little golem (ie level 3 or less)
2-Bigger looting to go with bigger golems or workshops
3-Better defensive spells/weapons; we have good offensive spells and weapons, but they are easy enough to counter via armor or simply waiting for them to run out when you're eying a defender.
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ZugZugPosts: 300 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 119 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20265 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 9:51 pm |
| While I don't really have a fix for the flesh golem issue (for me a defendingin fleshie always equaled 'Why bother?'), I do wish that so much info wasn't on display for attackers. That would at least help a little. An attacker knows exactly what they're getting into, especially when they can see spells and durations, so the attacker always has the upper hand. Weapons not being shown on the defender would at least put a little bit of surprise into things. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20279 Posted: Dec 17, 2008, 12:24 am |
| That's also a valid point, the attacker has all the advantages in that they know exactly what to expect aside from armor which they can usually estimate pretty closely, especially if they've attacked the person recently. |
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| Dedd Posts: 302
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #20557 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 10:03 am |
I agree with Laiden though... this whole flesh thing is a really big problem. It does not really make any sense. It is equivalent to leaving the door wide open and saying "come on in... but it will cost you".
It is really tricky to solve though. Here are some suggestions:
- There is a clan spell that hides information regarding the golem outside (I think?)... maybe this could be made a personal spell, and lower the motivation cost and increase the time it lasts so that it is generally accepted that higher level people could have anything outside...
(Notice how I didn't say it should be for clans only...)
- Maybe if the level of the attacking golem is so much higher than the defender it can simply push aside the weak golem and steal from the workshop at no xp loss to the attacker. Or simply attack the clan golem straight away.
- I like Laiden's idea regarding higher level magi not being able to place weak golems outside... but I do not know how to work this into a roleplaying "real situation"... since it needs to at least make some kind of sense to work. Maybe the magi find they are above casting their magic on such a weak thing as a defence? So a level 20 magi cannot animate a golem below level 5 or something? |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20567 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 1:41 pm |
I do agree with the previous posts and don't like the flesh guard mentality but I think at present the high level guards just aren't effective enough to be worth it.
with the addition of spells a fast low level bone can now take down a slow fully armoured high level Iron. Yes it may take a few attacks but the attacker has the luxury of repairs between each one.
So for a lot of people at present, putting out a high level golem, is like putting up a big sign saying "here's loads of xp and another kill for your score card, oh and I didn't need the resources to repair my wall and build a new guard, the 1xp I'll gain from each of your attacks will easily make up for it".
I think what I'm trying to say is that if higher level golems could be made more effective then people would use them. Also if there was a greater incentive to us them (see my post in Defenseless Workshops thread).
Maybe a simple but deadly solution (I'm sure this has already been suggested somewhere) would be to allow speed increase with a cap like strength (maybe 25ft) so you can make your bone golem deadly but your Iron golem even more so. |
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| Dedd Posts: 302
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #20582 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 4:59 pm |
Or... since that would make things far too lethal... how about being able to edit the terrain around your workshop.
This would take tons of programming I'm sure, but it could work... A whole new kind of barricade defence, such as mines which do random chance damage or moats which reduce the speed of all golems to 10? That would really make things interesting! Appreciate it probably won't happen though. |
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| DemonDurai Posts: 92
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 112 years old
| Message #20584 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 5:32 pm |
interesting, I see none of you have a fleshie defending you(;
DD |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #20585 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 5:35 pm |
| Just because we recognize that it's the best defense, doesn't mean we want to use it. We think it is unreasonable that it is the best, and so take the moral highground at the expense of wall levels and golem repairs we can afford. : () ) |
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ShanPosts: 589 Location: Arzenbourg Magus Age: 127 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #20587 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 5:48 pm |
masterslug brings up a good point. The reason low level flesh golems are the "best" choice for defense is that higher level golems are not cost-effective as guards. An attacker can demolish a dedicated defense without much trouble, and it costs too much more to rebuild that defense compared to the cost of replacing a useless flesh golem. Instead of suggesting ways to force people to put out high level guards, we should try identifying the cause for this and suggest solutions for it that don't unbalance the rest of the game.
As I see it, the way things are now, having a stronger defense just encourages people to attack you, when it should be the other way around. If you have a high level wall, people want to attack you for the score bonus they get for knocking it down. Your defense is stronger, but a powerful attacker can still knock one or two levels off it per attack. If you have a high level defender, people want to attack you for the high experience gain.
Perhaps stronger/higher level magi should have an inherently stronger wall, so they could support a stronger defender? Maybe the walls HP per level should be higher at higher wall levels. Or for each level of workshop someone has, their wall would get a bonus 5 or 10 HP per level.
I don't really have much experience with PvP besides people trying to break down my front door. I recently tried guarding my workshop with a level 4 clay golem, fully armored with Heavy Iron Plate, with Rainfall up. Two days later, a strength boosted bone golem tore both its arms off after three attacks (although most of the damage to the arms was concentrated in the last attack, so you could consider that bad luck).
If we consider strength boosted bone golems as the main threat to high level defenders (I'm not sure if that is the case), it might make things more balanced for the high level defender by somehow modifying minimum damage.
In your opinions, what is the biggest problem with having a high level defender?
And, since we wouldn't want to make defense to easy, what would you say is a fair amount of effort an attacker should have to make to break through a fair defense? |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20599 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 6:47 pm |
Very good point about the minimum damage. If that was reduced or even done away with then armour would be more useful and as bigger golems can carry more and higher level ones tend to have better natural resistance then they would be far more effective.
Also love the custom terrain Idea, as well as helping with this problem it would add a lot of fun to building your workshop. If there were slots for terrain so you could make tactical choices. Maybe some defenses will work better against different types of golems and same as research slots you could knock them down and try something different. :) |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20601 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 7:01 pm |
| I also like both those ideas, though it could make pvp in general much more difficult, maybe link the minimum damage to the golem level as well as strength somehow. And flesh golems aren't an entirely safe defense anymore either, as a spell-buffed level 1 flesh golem can do a pretty fair amount of damage and get halfway decent experience from anything... |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #20603 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 7:22 pm |
| Well, also flesh seems to have some sort of secret hidden bonus to dodge, I swear I hit a lot less when my opponent is using a flesh golem, and when armour is irrelevant because you're doing min damage anyway, that translates into flesh=evil |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20604 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 7:35 pm |
| I have also noticed the flesh golems amazing dodging ability. |
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| mardoc Posts: 33
Location: Shilo Steppe
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #20605 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 7:39 pm |
| yeah same, is it something to do with their speed? |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20624 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 11:57 pm |
There are two major problems that I know of for defenders.
The first, as people have already mentioned, is the minimum damage a golem will do each attack. Any time you armor a golem for hunting, it becomes a test of your ability to get just enough armor to take the minimum damage, in order to leave room for loot. With a fully loaded defender, a lot of the resistance value is worthless of minimum damage. Shouldn't damage be Attack-Defense=Damage?
The second issue is that most of the advantage, if not all, goes to the attacker. If you know the target's habits, you can plan attacks for when the person leaves for 12 +/- hours. That is plenty of time to take down someone's wall, destroy the golem, and raid the workshop. Maybe if we could set aside resources to automatically repair a defender between battles, higher level guards would be more viable.Last Edited: Dec 20, 2008, 1:13 am |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20629 Posted: Dec 20, 2008, 12:28 am |
| I don't really see how auto-repair would balance it any, as that would help repair the flesh golem as well, and not fix the XP issue. It would maybe make the big golems live a bit longer, but why wouldn't people just keep bashing on it that much longer? |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20632 Posted: Dec 20, 2008, 1:27 am |
By making it so the defending golem is automatically repaired between fights it would be that much harder to take down the high level golems. Sure it would do the exact same benefit for flesh golems, but it is more for making high guards a viable option than balancing types.
Putting aside the outrageous repair costs, consider an Adamantine guard. Think about how many back-to-back fights it takes one person to bring one down. The quick way to destroy it would be to send demon bags, high damage spells, or similar. But anyone who is determined can get through a wall and the (personal/clan) guard, with sufficient motivation and patience.
The point isn't to make an impervious defense. Any parts that get destroyed aren't repaired, and if you crit enough, the golem shuts down. Maybe if only the parts get repaired and not the main HP? |
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| Haruna Posts: 471
Location: Jinkara
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #20641 Posted: Dec 20, 2008, 3:04 am |
Mayhaps have the workshop wall take on the golem's properties and strengths?
Like a Clay guard would give the wall a 'healing' ability when it rains.
Or an Iron guard would give superior resists and health?
Making the walls dependant on the golem guarding them would be a way to beef up workshop's defenses, perhaps offer a bonus of experience to the defender if they repel the attack?
Oh and mayhaps make the golem-bane spikes dependant on the type of guard as well? Bone spikes could hit more often against quicker opponents, Admant could give the spikes a vicious strike. But limit the number of times it can occur, with bone/glass being most frequent, and iron/admant being fewer. |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20657 Posted: Dec 20, 2008, 9:25 am |
| Obstacle idea 1: A cattle grid (or cattle guard) would be the perfect defence against bone golems. :) |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20668 Posted: Dec 20, 2008, 4:41 pm |
| masterslug said:
Obstacle idea 1: A cattle grid (or cattle guard) would be the perfect defence against bone golems. :)
NO! Rabid sheep!! Baahahahahaha!! >3
(Hey if Diomedes can have man-eating horses, I can have rabid sheep) |
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