| Author | Thread: Glass golems tweaked down too much? |
| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #2210 Posted: May 6, 2008, 5:01 pm |
I don't have a whole lot of data to back this up, but it seems to me that glass and other secondary golems (copper, brass) have been tweaked down to the point of no longer being worth it, due to the high costs to maintain and repair them.
They are no longer really getting a return on investment vs the plain golems.
What do other people think? |
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CaduceusPosts: 185 Location: Last Alvia Dawning Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Paul
| Message #2213 Posted: May 6, 2008, 6:54 pm |
I wrote a thread in the Suggestions area about exotic metals and their resists-- having clay with better resists than Bronze/Copper/Brass is just goofy.
I know until clans come out, the danger of a bunch of exotic-golem wielding thugs descending like a flock of jackals* upon hapless mages is a concern, so I believe the offensive capabilities being toned down is a good move for now. Better safe than sorry. Once clans are up and running, I'm sure he'll restructure things and add a little back, make the risk vs. reward more appropriate to the costs involved in researching and maintaining the exotics.
*the jackals in my analogy are winged |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #2245 Posted: May 7, 2008, 7:48 pm |
Wrath Drone #1446 did 378 dmg while her Galatea did 8 dmg.
The defender lost its iron bands and iron studs.
You earned -2 xp and Necaria earned 10 xp.
Your golem will be back at your workshop in 1 min 30 sec.
I'd say no, copper golems are fine:P. Glass might be too weakened though. |
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| FatherLatour Posts: 160
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 137 years old
Real Name: Jean
Email: FatherLatour@gmail.com
| Message #2246 Posted: May 7, 2008, 9:02 pm |
| That was inordinate amount of luck! I haven't seen results like those since before the tweak. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #2250 Posted: May 7, 2008, 9:34 pm |
I even had night and desert penalties as well as golembane spikes(whatever those do) to try to fight off your luck, but alas, in vain.
Also, you hit Laidan after the tweak in his post I'm pretty sure, and did that well. Last Edited: May 7, 2008, 9:39 pm |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #2252 Posted: May 7, 2008, 10:00 pm |
| Nah, that was pre-tweak I think |
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| FatherLatour Posts: 160
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 137 years old
Real Name: Jean
Email: FatherLatour@gmail.com
| Message #2256 Posted: May 7, 2008, 10:52 pm |
| Yeah, that one was definitely pre-tweak. 380 damage against an iron with a heatstone means a 110% hit rate now (Crits count double, so strictly possible), with no defense penalties or armor involved. I'm pretty sure both of those were involved, so you're looking closer to 140% Last Edited: May 7, 2008, 11:03 pm |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #2257 Posted: May 7, 2008, 11:07 pm |
5 days ago? I was pretty sure it was weakened earlier than that, but I'm not positive so I'll take your words for it.
Although Iron's speed is low enough that I would think a high hit rate would be common against them. You had a 77.5% hit rate against me, 40 attacks with 31 hitting, and I had better speed compared to an iron, and decent mods in my opinion on my side(though depends what spikes do.. Anyone know?).
Speaking of, was never responded to in Laidan's post, how do you get so many attacks with a heatstone? 40 despite desert penalties, and I hear wall reduces it further. My flesh only gets 43 against the practice dummy with a voidstone, and my friend's bone gets something around there as well. Is voidstone just not actually any better to speak of, or do copper golems attack a whole lot more than their speed would suggest?
*edited for slightly easier reading*
P.S. I just realized my post about glass was made on the 1st, and Laidan's about copper was on the second. They were changed at the same time, and I put off posting about it for a bit, so unless Laidan delayed posting for a couple days, you did hit him after the damage reduction(though not of course after the resistance improvement that just happened yesterday or something).Last Edited: May 8, 2008, 12:15 am |
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 123 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #7102 Posted: Jul 16, 2008, 4:52 pm |
I do love diving in and reviving old threads. ^^
Anyway, I've been thinking about it a lot, and having glass golems in the same effective level range as the metal golems is... silly.
There really is no way to equip them so that they would reliably come out ahead against anything in their level range.
They are too weak to equip the 3 slot elemental gems, and using a two slot would still leave them practically unarmored (death for a glass golem). That means you have to either make them level 3 so you can fit an oroboros and armor into the chest (putting them at the same EL as an adamantine golem) or use outdated alchemical stones.
Considering then that even a very poorly equipped iron golem will soak half (+/- 1 depending on whether you consider a set on iron studs "poorly equipped") the glass golem's damage, all those attacks aren't going to come out to more than 150 damage. (Meanwhile, a level 3 bone golem with an oroboros is averaging 110 against the same iron golem, and taking much less damage.)
Also, the slicing damage that used to be so hard to armor against isn't really an issue anymore since you the damage values were dropped. If your opponent happens to have chain mail on, you're doing NO damage pretty much, and even an unarmored golem clay and up is only going to take 10-15 damage a hit (and who leaves exotic golems unarmored?).
Then of course it's useless for PvE, because it outlevels anything it can beat, and can't carry any loot.
All it's damage will fall under most walls, so it's not much good for attacking turtled golems.
Um... It's really hard to armor it against the exotics.
Uhh... I'm sure there's more... They can't really equip weapons? Kind of a bummer..
Oh, because it's armor is so weak, leaving it out as a defender becomes a huge invitation for somebody to rip your wall apart.
Yep, pretty much terrible.Last Edited: Jul 16, 2008, 4:57 pm |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #7103 Posted: Jul 16, 2008, 5:01 pm |
Lol...I was about to bring this up again as well.
the changes to the spiked walls, pretty much makes glass golems useless, as they'll destroy themselves even without a defending golem attacking.
One idea I had, is to make the chance you "hit" a spike based on the speed (dexterity) of the golem. The speedier golems, like glass would be able to dodge around the spikes and take less hits (maybe 1/10 attacks), while the slower (and dumber) iron golem would just pound it's way through them (1/1.5 or so).
Spikes right now still feel overpowered to me. I can destroy them pretty well, but at a HUGE cost of repairs AND xp (since you need to attack with higher level to hit the wall enough), a cost that isn't worth it to break through for the chance I might loot some resources. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #10578 Posted: Aug 21, 2008, 6:04 am |
| I'd like to add their "dodge" edge isn't nearly as much of an edge anymore as people have better eyes, animating spirits(making for more attacks), and higher average magus levels. Not to mention most clans will have a weapon of some kind with a precision bonus(think only alchemy/spell combo has access to no weapons. And even they can grab the general ones if they want). |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 122 years old
| Message #11237 Posted: Sep 4, 2008, 3:25 am |
The main rule of thumb for balance (IMHO) is to ask two questions: "Why would anyone want this?" and "Why wouldn't everyone want this?" The first question tells you if the item is too underpowered; the second tells you if it's overpowered.
Why would anyone want to make glass golems? They're useless for hunting monsters because their base level is so high you get no XP. They're useless for PVP in this day and age because they break apart on the spikes versus a wall and any decently armed golem can break them with meelee weapons. As for ranged, they get no more attacks than any other golem so their number one benefit is gone. I suppose they're good at backing out of range, but the much cheaper Flesh golems (both in terms of research and the fact that their resource is renewable) are only 3ft slower, AND can get you some XP, AND carry twice as much loot.
If they got extra attacks when using a weapon, I'd love them to pieces. As it stands, to get one combat-ready I have to spend a few thousand of a non-manufacturable secondary resource (the others can be made with gems), plus several hundred XP to boost the strength enough to carry some decent armor to offset their fragility, plus whatever I'm using for limbs, only to find that I'm really better off using a flesh golem in the first place. Last Edited: Sep 4, 2008, 3:26 am |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #17723 Posted: Nov 13, 2008, 11:46 pm |
| To re-resurrect an old thread, glass golems still seem pointless to me. Has anyone found a use for them yet, except as a way to get people to attack (and smash) you when you use it as a guard? |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #17729 Posted: Nov 14, 2008, 12:56 am |
I recall some OTAKU members were using level 1's to deliver 6-demon bags awhile ago.
Otherwise, nope, still useless. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #17735 Posted: Nov 14, 2008, 2:01 am |
| Why would they be preferable over fleshes for bag delivery? They're level 8, you wouldn't get much xp and you'd use a lot more motivation.. Seems like flesh is a much better choice. Glass has a bit less hp I suppose, but in theory dodges a bit more so shouldn't be too different. Unless you meant glass limbs rather than glass golems.. |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 127 years old
| Message #17757 Posted: Nov 14, 2008, 10:31 am |
Glass limbs would be ridiculous on anything, aside from maybe style points on something equally ridiculous like a level 5 glass golem.
And when attacking with 6dbs xp generally isn't much of a concern. But yeah, I suspect they just had it lying around and figured it might as well get some use. |
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 123 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #17865 Posted: Nov 15, 2008, 8:44 pm |
| They would be less ridiculous than a glass chest, given the way things are balanced right now. |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #32170 Posted: Jun 16, 2009, 5:54 pm |
| With the combat changes glass golems are even worse(if such a thing is possible). With a water gem(pretty much the best power source you can expect to have without strength enhancements) it basically runs out of energy after the second round of attacks. |
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