| Author | Thread: Clan taxation | Page 1 | 2 |
| Sterling Posts: 157
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 126 years old
| Message #2237 Posted: May 7, 2008, 5:30 pm |
Would be great not to have to rely entirely on donations to have the clan get resources - I suggest putting in a modifiable clan taxation rate that taxes mages working at the farm, and possible taxes their primary resource income.
This would make everyone pay in proportion to their level, which is great, and means there isn't the constant nagging of a guild leader asking people to donate necessary, which is even better. |
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| FatherLatour Posts: 160
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 137 years old
Real Name: Jean
Email: FatherLatour@gmail.com
| Message #2239 Posted: May 7, 2008, 5:37 pm |
| I vote in opposition. Donation should be a conscientious thing. Even the IRS makes you write them a check. |
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PeggaPosts: 702 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 128 years old Clan: ADV | Message #2240 Posted: May 7, 2008, 5:42 pm |
| FatherLatour said:
I vote in opposition. Donation should be a conscientious thing. Even the IRS makes you write them a check.
Really? I'll have to take a closer look at my paycheck. I think they've got their grubby little hands all over it.
As for the taxation thing, I would like that it would be an automatic thing. For example, x% of resource gain per hour go to the clan's coffers. I don't see money or secondary stuff going that direction, but it would be nice to set that up so it could occur too. Maybe a once a day withdrawal.
That said, I would want it to be set by the individual, not the clan. However, hopefully, the clan can see who is donating what, keep track of it, and then lean on those who aren't paying their fair share as deemed by the clan. People will be free to leave should the clan get too greedy, so that should keep some of it in check. |
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| FatherLatour Posts: 160
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 137 years old
Real Name: Jean
Email: FatherLatour@gmail.com
| Message #2241 Posted: May 7, 2008, 5:50 pm |
| XD Your boss did that, not the IRS. HE just had to write that check, not you. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #2244 Posted: May 7, 2008, 7:33 pm |
There's an 'Activity' tab in the clan section that shows details about the clan. Creation, joining/leaving, promotions/demotions, who takes what item, who upgrades what building, etc. Donates are also on the list. It's sortable by type of message, so should be relatively easy for clan leaders to track who's donating.
I'm going to leave it up to the clan to enforce and decide.
Kep |
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| Sterling Posts: 157
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 126 years old
| Message #2248 Posted: May 7, 2008, 9:23 pm |
| I was assuming the donations would be tracked. Even so, that's a heap of management that can be avoided with a little bit of code. I think it's better to have it. Clans that want to do donation-only can set it to 0%. I've been in enough of these sorts of games to know that NOT having a system like this is a far bigger headache than having it - one great way to make sure social development in a clan is screwed up is to allow people to start letting people think others are freeloading, or have freeloaders. |
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CaduceusPosts: 185 Location: Last Alvia Dawning Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Paul
| Message #2253 Posted: May 7, 2008, 10:28 pm |
| I dislike the idea of an auto-donation or forced donation rate. |
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| Poseidon Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 119 years old
Real Name: Jack Website: Click HereEmail: kingclown00@hotmail.com | Message #2254 Posted: May 7, 2008, 10:39 pm |
| I like the idea, but nothing too extreme. I think if you make it to where you set whether or not there is a tax upon clan creation and it is unchangeable it would be great. Probably the max you could charge would be 5%, and then primaries only. Thats plenty to keep the clan running and still not really drain anyone out of all their primaries. |
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 123 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #2259 Posted: May 7, 2008, 11:40 pm |
| Keeping track of contributions, and dealing with the issues that arise from that, is a critical responsibility of leadership. Taking that away, or abstracting it into a bit of script, would be harmful to game play and feel. If you don't want to bother with organizing donations, hire an accountant. *shrug* Or let it slide, but the game shouldn't do it for you. |
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DilvishPosts: 219 Location: Feldspar Magus Age: 139 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Jeff
| Message #2274 Posted: May 8, 2008, 1:44 am |
Being from NH, my state motto is "Live free or die." We're talking about taxes. I say no taxation with or without representation. Besides, I'm likely to give more if it is voluntary.
And as far as the gubamint taking your money, you chose to have money taken out of your check. That's the schedule of withholding you sign when you get hired. You can alway increase your exemptions. You just have to come up with your full tax payment come April 15th.
Also to all of you who pay taxes, thank you for my paycheck. |
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| Elsworth Posts: 93
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #2280 Posted: May 8, 2008, 4:50 am |
Just wait for the clan leader to make it a condition of entry to the clan that you tithe a certain amount (or something similar)...
And if you don't well then, that's grounds for expulsion from the clan...
Donations are trackable, even if it's hands-on, but it can be done and some clans might do it... |
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| Endovior Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 124 years old
| Message #2302 Posted: May 8, 2008, 5:11 pm |
| I agree; no taxation. Ban people from the clan, don't let them have clan items, don't promote them, whatever suits you... but no taxation. |
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CaduceusPosts: 185 Location: Last Alvia Dawning Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Paul
| Message #2305 Posted: May 8, 2008, 5:25 pm |
I mainly object to the (admittedly small) potential for abuse. Say, someone goes on vacation and sets their automatic resource donation to 100%. They've just evaded the resource cap. Admittedly, it's a minor concern, but I don't like any part of the game being put on auto-pilot. Log in, click a few buttons. Play the game.
In my opinion, setting a mandatory donation rate would be counterproductive from every angle. Those who would give more-- they may shrug and figure they're doing enough, if this is all the guild is requiring. Others may become resentful of the clan demanding a portion of their resources, rather than what they would choose to give freely.
Seems like a lose-lose all around. |
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| Sterling Posts: 157
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 126 years old
| Message #2348 Posted: May 9, 2008, 8:58 pm |
| Caduceus said:
I mainly object to the (admittedly small) potential for abuse. Say, someone goes on vacation and sets their automatic resource donation to 100%. They've just evaded the resource cap. Admittedly, it's a minor concern, but I don't like any part of the game being put on auto-pilot. Log in, click a few buttons. Play the game.
In my opinion, setting a mandatory donation rate would be counterproductive from every angle. Those who would give more-- they may shrug and figure they're doing enough, if this is all the guild is requiring. Others may become resentful of the clan demanding a portion of their resources, rather than what they would choose to give freely.
Seems like a lose-lose all around.
The clan would set a donation rate, not an individual. Sure, the CLAN could set it to 100%, but I imagine there would be a 'wait time' till the change took effect, and that anyone that did that would lose their entire clan immediately.
I think it's far less than counterproductive. what it does is insure that everyone contributes an equal measure to the clan, without the constant hassle of nagging people to do so, and if anyone wants to contribute more, they would be free to do so. Any clan that wants to go donation-only would set their rate to 0%.
Seems like a win-win-win situation to me. But I guess we have a lot of anarcho-libertarians playing here. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #2350 Posted: May 9, 2008, 9:22 pm |
| I am with Sterling on this one, I don't see how having the option out there would hurt, and a number of ways it could cut down on work for all involved, if they so chose. And if you didn't like a particular clan's taxes it is easy enough to leave. |
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CaduceusPosts: 185 Location: Last Alvia Dawning Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Paul
| Message #2352 Posted: May 9, 2008, 10:10 pm |
| Sterling said:
The clan would set a donation rate, not an individual. Sure, the CLAN could set it to 100%, but I imagine there would be a 'wait time' till the change took effect, and that anyone that did that would lose their entire clan immediately.
I was referring to the proposed idea of people individually setting an auto-debit from their resource account in this example, not the clan. |
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| FatherLatour Posts: 160
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 137 years old
Real Name: Jean
Email: FatherLatour@gmail.com
| Message #2356 Posted: May 10, 2008, 4:33 am |
I really don't think it's consistent with the feel of the game, that we are all fully independent and only have as much power as other people let us have.
The "Sovereign Magistrate" of a clan is nobody special, unless he can talk some people into supporting him. If he can do his job without talking, then something is wrong. |
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| Nageya Posts: 86
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #2360 Posted: May 10, 2008, 5:11 am |
I like the idea of a clan based tax in addition to voluntary donations it will get rid of a lot of arguments you could describe it as a membership fee , even today unions will claim a portion of the members wages as a membership fee and if you don't like the taxes a leader sets you can drop out of the guild and make your own.
if you set limits to how high a tax can be raised and how often it can be changed I don't see it as being exploitable maybe a 30 % limit and only being changeable once a week |
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 123 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #2362 Posted: May 10, 2008, 5:52 am |
| That's just the thing, I want you guys to have to deal with those arguments. :P I don't care if it's not abusable. I don't care about you abusing your members, but you have to deal with them. |
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| Nageya Posts: 86
Location: Asylum
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #2366 Posted: May 10, 2008, 10:51 am |
I think it should be be for the clan leader to deside what kind of clan environment their clan will be whether there will be close interaction between the clan leader and the members or whether it will just be a lose coalition of lightly connected Magi.
And really I don't consider "I want to cause other people problems" to be a valid reason not to use the feature |
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| Sterling Posts: 157
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 126 years old
| Message #2376 Posted: May 10, 2008, 10:47 pm |
| FatherCoyne said:
That's just the thing, I want you guys to have to deal with those arguments. :P I don't care if it's not abusable. I don't care about you abusing your members, but you have to deal with them.
That's inane. A clan leader is always going to have to talk to his members. But it's just a game, and I'd rather those discussions be about fun, interesting things (Like Tales of Mu in my case, or game strategy) than about who donated what, when.
I don't see WHY I should be forced to be an accountant for the clan. I want to have fun, my clan wants to have fun, and Arkham should want me to have fun so I keep playing and keep subscribing to premium memberships. Being an accountant is NOT fun. I could get someone else in my clan to do it too, I guess, but that just shifts the burden of not-fun work to them instead.
It's just a fact of life that some people donate on time, regularly, and some people do not, without some prodding.
The #1 most important part of having a successful online game with high retention rates is creating a game where people stay because of the social fabric of the game. This is why features like clans, guilds, dungeon raids, markets, etc, are such a big part of the end-game of all successful MMO's. Games that assist and promote this social fabric are more successful than games that don't.
I am perfectly fine if Arkham says this is too hard to add, that's his choice as a developer. But I'm not fine with a bunch of people who are ignorant of good online game design strategies saying not to add it, especially when it's completely optional if you feel like not using it. |
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| Yonk Posts: 105
Location: Villuno
Magus Age: 132 years old
| Message #2401 Posted: May 12, 2008, 5:08 am |
If it gets implemented a good idea would be for the Grand Magistrate to set a tax level (if any) when he creates the guild. Then, any changes to the tax he proposes would require a vote from all members before they took effect (either unanimous or a high majority.)
- Since it takes time to run through the voting process the clan would be basically forced to keep it at a moderate, sustainable level (no potentially abusive 100% tax runs.)
- Anyone who hates the idea of being taxed could join a clan with a 0% tax, knowing that he could veto any tax raises.
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| FatherCoyne Posts: 332
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 123 years old
Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu
| Message #2404 Posted: May 12, 2008, 5:37 am |
Being an accountant isn't fun? You must be doing it wrong. :P
Anyway, you don't have to be ignorant of good online game design to say that creating an 'autopilate' type feature is bad. You can't Automate attacks, you can't automate repairs, you can't automate market exchanges, why would you be able to automate donations?
You know it isn't that much fun repairing your golem every fight, and there's no way to do it when you're not there. That doesn't mean Ark should program in auto-repairs. Why? Because you're supposed repair your golem on your own.
You can say these aren't the same, because auto-repairs would break combat, but auto-donation breaks resource managment. |
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| Endovior Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 124 years old
| Message #2406 Posted: May 12, 2008, 3:31 pm |
Agreed. Even without the whole "taxation is annoying and I don't like it" factor, it does constitute a fairly serious abuse of resource management.
Create an guild. Set guild tax to maximum (or just really high). Create an alt at a remote location. Join the alt to the guild. Abandon the alt completely.
You've just increased your guild resource production permanently and freely without triggering any anti-multi defenses. |
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CaduceusPosts: 185 Location: Last Alvia Dawning Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: OTAKU2 Real Name: Paul
| Message #2407 Posted: May 12, 2008, 3:53 pm |
| To clarify, I have no problem with a guild-wide tax rate. It's fair and equitable, and hits all members equally. What I would oppose is a setting for "donate this % of my resources to the guild automatically", set by individual members. In my opinion, that has more potential for abuse. |
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