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Index » Muelsfell Game Forum » Spells and Magic Discussions Muelsfell World v1.0 Forums
AuthorThread: New Clan Spell: Second Wind
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[ADMIN] Arkham
Arkham's Avatar
Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 100 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #26713 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 2:41 am
Sorry I've been so busy lately, but here's a little toy for the spell clans to play with:

Second Wind. Library Level 3. Boosts a golem's energy by 40%.

"Second Wind increases a golem's energy capacity significantly, letting it swing more often or use heavier weaponry that would normally drain it too quickly."

Tweakage up or down might be had to make sure the spell is valuable but not too overpowered. Feedback welcome as always. Enjoy! :)

Kep
Last Edited: Mar 5, 2009, 7:19 pm
Dilt
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Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 88 years old
Message #26745 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 7:38 am
And now the University students and staff start reverse engineering how energy affects golems. We'll get back to you on if it's overpowered or underpowered. Still, for those itemprimary&spellsecondary clans, eesh. 700 power improved steamers... Wouldn't want to have to fight something with that in it.
masterslug
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Posts: 619
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 100 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26749 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 8:22 am
hmm as a 0 level spell could it not be made a 'General Clan Items' :)

Then our 12 level Item wouldn't be out powered by any spell clan with a 1st level library and an Ouroboros.

For any one that doesn't know level 12 library = stupid amounts of time and resources. We could have bought half of Muelsfell for the cost of one library level! (maybe not the nicest half with good views and close to good schools, but still half).
Yamikuronue
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Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 92 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #26759 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 11:55 am
The spell does nothing to reduce the weight or slots. Many of my golems can't carry a big power source. Plus spells wear off and cost moti. You get yours basically free and permanent once it's actually built.
masterslug
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Posts: 619
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 100 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26760 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 1:32 pm
The Ouroboros is already much lighter than the improved steam engine and the same number of slots, this spell can be used to make any golem, with 3 slot, more effective rather than just ones strong enough to carry the extra weight. I know there are multiple factors I've not addressed like spell stacking, motivation cost, build times (more than 40 days to get one each), costs, locations etc.

But that's not my point. My point is twelve levels difference for less output. Shouldn't a twelfth level item be far better than a 0 level item/spell. I don't think there is any thing wrong with the spell and I don't begrudge spell clans getting it, I think that maybe the balance of other clan paths needs a little addressing.

There was much debate about the elemental spell not being powerful enough for fifth level, a debate based around usefulness and comparisons to other paths. A spell that can add 2 or 3 hits extra per round with a weapon or lets your golem fight more rounds, how do the other paths compare with that?
Last Edited: Mar 4, 2009, 1:35 pm
Dilt
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Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 88 years old
Message #26774 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 4:09 pm
Sure, masterslug. You just have to give up your anvil, exotic damage, or strength-boosting spell in order to have it. Your improved power is still far superior to our spell, in the end, simply because of the above rule. In serious PvP, spells are usually extremely important to have, and it's as simple as that. From our early findings, this spell would only be more useful than the strength spells only at about 4-5 damage per attack; basically, making the spell for boosted golems or against unarmored opponents. The latter is extremely overshadowed by the elemental boosting spells, but the former is of-note. Against a completely armored enemy (let's say a completely armored Addy 5 with Maulhammer), this spell would be useful, if you were attacking with a strength boosted golem. Of course, this forgets that the strength spell lets you have extra armoring in this sort of situation, and bone hunters really could use that extra boost in defense against this sort of beast. But, yeah, this would be about it, combat-wise. You guys with your fancy pants 500 energy without a spell...

Also, the goal seems to be to make this spell valuable, but not overpowered. Making it a higher level spell might be a better idea for balance, but the trick is if the spell is actually valuable or not. As of current, I wouldn't consider it over the personal spells - rather have exotic damage or more strength in the situations that it would be used in. If I wanted simple massive damage, we could indeed use the favorite clan spell, Anvil.

We haven't got the spell, though, so we have no idea the affect on moti cost. Hey, Kep, does it decrease attack motivation cost? If so, then the spell is actually more useful than it lets on, since it has an outside-combat influence.
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #26778 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 4:51 pm
Eh, it's looking to be rather useful, but you know Masterslug, after a point, additional energy doesn't actually help. The energy usage per round is capped by your golem's speed, for example it seems as if a bone 3 wouldn't be able to use anything beyond 480ish power. This spell grows slightly more useful when you add in weapons, because they have additional energy requirements, but they also have a far lower speed cap, so maybe not as helpful as you'd think.

It won't increase a golem's attacks/round as far as I can tell, just make those numbers that you get in the first couple rounds last longer

Dilt, that 5ish damage an attack is incredibly misleading, that was with one specific golem type and level, and was compared to Rhino Strength. Also we aren't sure how valid the data was, as we might well surpass the saturation point with an energy boost.

Personally, I think this is a valuable spell, but not one for every situation. Considering the amount of occasions it won't be at all helpful, and the motivation cost, I don't think that it's overpowered.

Although, level 1 does seem a little low, I think this spell rates at least a 4.
masterslug
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Posts: 619
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 100 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26796 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 7:43 pm
Dilt - you may be right, I'm no PVP expert, but on my calculations against a top end guard, this spell works out marginally better than elephant strength, so then it's down to cost (I have no idea what that is).

Elephant strength gives you 60lbs bonus capacity but you save 55 on having an Ouroboros rather than the ISE so I'm not sure that argument is valid either.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, the option of this spell is open to all spell members, where as finances and production time heavily restricts distribution of the engine, making the spell better for a clan as a whole rather than just the higher level members.

Yes If you stack the ISE with Elephant strength it will be better, (a lot better for minimum damage) but still not 12 levels better and that's really my point. I don't think the problem is with this spells as such, I think it's the value for level progression. I'm sure the melee clans will agree there.

Just ask your selves what would you expect from a twelfth level spell.
laidan
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Posts: 1158
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 89 years old
Clan: OASIS
Message #26800 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 8:18 pm
Personally I am hoping that when combined with our melee weapons it actually makes them more useful, but we haven't tested that idea yet. But yeah, level 0 seems a bit low.
Dilt
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Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 88 years old
Message #26806 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 8:51 pm
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that this spell should be given an increase in clan level. If I go and look at the clans in parallel, the spell comes pretty much way too early on. Level 0? Geez. The earlier comparison was based off of pure damage potential, and ISEs were ignored due to clan item selling not operational quite yet.

You also have a point. It does go to every clan member, unlike personal spells. And for stats, it's 10 moti for 6 hours, so it's comparable to the strength spells in terms of duration, and for dimes in moti cost. This is really not a spell for early clannies to have. Also, the name is misleading! Second wind sort of infers that they speed up after slowing down, whereas this spell seems to just give them more overall energy. :(

As a note, we've discovered that some golems seem to have caps on the maximum energy they can make use of. Eventually, they cannot make more attacks than they do in the 10 rounds alloted, no matter how much energy they have. Some are less efficient than others - an iron 5 would take this spell, an improved steam engine, and a little more to completely 'saturate' with energy, whereas fast-acting coppers seem to be able to be maxed with almost as little as a voidstone. It all depends on golem type, speed, and level.

We're still waiting for a ranged weapon as fun and useful as everyone else's magical 12 item, since we're about at the legendary level 12 ourselves.

Tzadkiel
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Posts: 596
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26808 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 8:54 pm
So, let's say I am in fictitious clan Murphy's Law MLAW. We're an Item/Spell clan with a level 12 library

I have an Improved Steam Engine and Second Wind, giving me an energy rating of 700.

Without doing the math, I think the chainsaw of forerunner blades is going to beat an extra 3 damage per hit of elephant strength. Luckily the number of weapons available to MLAW is decidedly small ~shwew~

Sconi,
It won't increase a golem's attacks/round as far as I can tell, just make those numbers that you get in the first couple rounds last longer


I am unfamiliar with the calculations that determine "recharge" of energy during a combat, but let's say I disagree with that statement when it comes to weapons. Besides, Ark's own description says "letting it swing more often" so maybe I misunderstand your statement.
Yamikuronue
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Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 92 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #26809 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 9:00 pm
Our research is strictly limited to fists right now, we're trying to establish a baseline that we can compare weapons to fists with. A lot of golems, weaponless, cannot possibly use anything above a voidstone because there's apparently a max number of attacks they can get and their fists costs very little energy - say, 3.5 energy per hit. 700 energy would be wasted on them - they don't get 200 hits, they just get whatever the cap is and the rest is wasted. I'm sure the energy will start to matter when you get weapons that take, say, 10 energy - then they really would get 70 hits with the weapon. But of course, it's taking a lot of testing to control for various factors and get baseline rates.

ETA: also, Tzad, our research indicates that the number of hits per round may be the overall cap - they may only get, say, 12 hits per round, but with the max energy they can use, they'd get 12 hits every round for 9 rounds, instead of 12, 12, 11, 10, 5, 3, 1, 1, 1, or something to that effect. Note, these numbers were pulled out of my ass and do not reflect actual research (unless by accident)
Last Edited: Mar 4, 2009, 9:02 pm
Tzadkiel
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Posts: 596
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26813 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 9:34 pm
Valuable inter-clan discussion. We've all done independent research, trying to reverse engineer the calculations here and I am keen to hear more. I am speaking for myself since I have not spoken much on this topic in clan - let's say this is a workshop for something to go into the wiki (and shame on those who withhold from the wiki)

Generic questions:
What are the max # of attacks per golem (Does level affect?)
Does missing take less energy than a hit?
How much energy does closing to attack require
How much does terrain and weather affect movement cost
How quickly to do golems recover energy / how quickly do powersources recover energy
Does golem speed factor into the number of attacks? (regardless of energy)

Then of course comes the inevitable question of energy cost by weapon. (I am assuming that a spiked chain is ~ 80-85)

/end NyQuil induced ramblings



Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #26816 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 9:45 pm
What we've found so far:

the maximum number of attacks per golem is as yet undetermined

missing and hitting take the same amount of energy

movement seems to take no energy

Golems don't seem to recover energy, but it does seem as if
percentages of their total energy are locked until later rounds

Tzadkiel
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Posts: 596
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26818 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 10:23 pm
so - when combat halts because everyone is too tired - where did that come into the calculation. I'm sure I didn't "save" zero energy for later. (though I do always forget to carry the 2)

re: movement. I have definitely had combats where I closed to attack on a large monster and made, say 5 opening attacks but if the enemy closed to me, I get 6. Perhaps there is a cost to get inside the reach of a MOB?
masterslug
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Posts: 619
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 100 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26821 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 10:30 pm
Thanks for sharing guys this is really interesting stuff, I need to do some test now to see if I can replicate your findings.
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #26823 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 10:56 pm
the peak number of attacks per round seems somehow randomized, I think for a bone golem it might be 8-13, but in any given round it can be any of those, I think. (not recorded data, but remembered, so it might be a little off)

The combat halting because of people being too tired is the only a certain percentage can be used before a certain round, I think. The numbers work out for linear at least, and don't seem to be effected by showing up a round late, unless you're near peak power. I think that happens sometimes when you would get a fraction of an attack from the energy 'unlocked' so it rolls a die and gives you the attack or doesn't based on that.
Dilt
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Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 88 years old
Message #26826 Posted: Mar 4, 2009, 11:19 pm
Yay for reverse engineering!
Necaria
Posts: 505
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 91 years old
Clan: OASIS
Message #26834 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 1:46 am
MAGIER's old golem energy use post suggested a regeneration of energy each round, accounting for that down time followed by additional attacks. In my experiments I've found no reason to doubt it. 5% a round was the number provided as I recall. Something for you motivated types to check into:)

*edit* I think technically the post was pre-clan, but it was Latour or Coyne or some major MAGIER player, so yeah.
Last Edited: Mar 5, 2009, 1:47 am
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #26835 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 1:56 am
To finally stifle all the energy regeneration nonsense... A bone 3 uses 5 energy per swing, we're pretty sure of this number, it has been corroborated a number of times, it gets 20 attacks with a strip, thirty with a tablet, 40 with a heatstone, and 72 with an ouroborus. The numbers we are getting are telling us there is no regeneration.
Last Edited: Mar 5, 2009, 2:26 am
Tzadkiel
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Posts: 596
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 99 years old
Clan: OTAKU
Message #26849 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 4:09 am
begs the question. 40 attacks against what/in what combat scenario? An armless iron golem that can take that punishment but not hit back?
Yamikuronue
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Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 92 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #26854 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 5:31 am
40 attacks if it fights to a stalemate on round ten. Less, obviously, if it kills its foe in 30, or if it dies, or is dis-armed or de-pelvised.
CommComms
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Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 96 years old
Message #26881 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 4:51 pm
The only MAGIER energy regeneration chart I know of is the one buried in our forums which was lovingly hand-crafted by me. It does say that a level 3 bone uses 5 energy per attack, but nothing about energy regeneration.

There's the illusion of energy regeneration since golems don't use their energy in the most efficient manner possible. I.E. if a golem had 20 energy, each attack used 1, and it had a rate of 8 it would attack 8 times in rounds 1 and 2, then four times in round 3, then not at all. In actuality, they tend to save some portion of their energy for attacks in later rounds.

Of course if energy were regenerating every then it would look exactly the same as it does... And going by Occam's Razor it seems to me that regeneration is more likely than the golem storing some undefined percentage of energy for use in later rounds.
Yamikuronue
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Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 92 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #26886 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 5:47 pm
Really? Our research seems to indicate that the power rating on a power source is how much total energy it puts out over 10 rounds, and each round it releases a percentage of that, so that fights tend to end sooner than if it released 10% per round. The reason there's obviously energy being released or regenerated in later rounds is that after stalling the golem tends to find the energy to keep going. Energy regeneration would indicate to me that the number of times you stall out should affect your overall attack rating and the numbers aren't supporting that.
[ADMIN] Arkham
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Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 100 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #26894 Posted: Mar 5, 2009, 7:19 pm
Wow, lots of good thoughts and discussion going on this. Very pleased. :)

I agree that the spell needed a level requirement, but at the time of release I thought, "Eh, let's see what happens" and set it loose without one. I've just now tweaked the level requirement to 3rd and editted the first post to reflect that.

In my testing, this spell was not as potent as Elemental Fury. Of course, when I test, I use a set of 3 or so golems and can not test every possibility or combination, so mileage may vary.

Further tweaks to spells as needed.

Kep
 
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