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Index » Muelsfell Game Forum » Clan Discussions Muelsfell World v1.0 Forums
AuthorThread: General Clan Item Update
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[ADMIN] Arkham
Arkham's Avatar
Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 110 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #32912 Posted: Jul 2, 2009, 6:04 pm
"Generic" clan items available to all clans to create such as the iron sword and oak shortbow no longer require a precious clan item slot. You can just create them from the artificer as if the clan already knew them.

This has the advantage of providing a "free" ammo type for ranged clans. It also has the advantage of freeing up slots for any clan that chose a general clan item.

Kep
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #32916 Posted: Jul 2, 2009, 7:30 pm
Most excellent. Thank you.

Any chance of making them disposable? (Especially the lantern) just to keep the production crews happy?
Anri
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Posts: 229
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 104 years old
Clan: ADV
Real Name: Lily
Message #32917 Posted: Jul 2, 2009, 7:42 pm
Uhhh.... Why would the lantern be disposable?
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #32933 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 12:31 am
Same reason arrows are.
It just keeps production items flowing through, otherwise its join the clan, the clan makes Membersx2 lanterns. Everyone gets 2, night time no longer an issue anymore.

Disposable/destroyed items put in a planned redundancy/obselescence. The production cost can be kept low (per item) and a modest balance between producing new items cheapily, or putting up the capital cost so the item lasts forever. But if the item lasts forever (ie is more expensive) then it only inconveniences the new folk - who we want to encourage.

For the older folk the point is not to have it fail at a discouraging rate - or give them the chance to put in a more powerful item (ie clan item) to replace the benefit or to add a few extra benefits. That turns a failing nothing item into a bonus they can be excited to try and obtain. Perhaps a Gemmed Enchanted Lantern for X number of Acheivements (eg requires no oil), and an Item clan version that adds bonuses (eg flare to stun other golem for a round?).

By adding the redundancy the item is given value.
Once it has value it can be developed.

Previously no-one bothered with it (because the clan-slot price put a small item way off the menu!)
Last Edited: Jul 3, 2009, 12:38 am
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #32934 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 12:40 am
Also items which wearout/degreade give Kep the chance to say something like "Premium accounts" get no wear & tear on items. Or some such.

(as apparantly such having a premium account would mean a Magi has employed/contracted a small bunch of tired, stressed, overworked and underpaid programmers to do routine maintenance visits to their workshops!)
Dilt
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Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 98 years old
Message #32935 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 1:46 am
Mist: Go join a ranged clan then say that again, please. :(
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 102 years old
Message #32936 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 2:26 am
Actually, I think most clans have things consistently in production already, Defense seems to need to replace armour with frequency, due to bits being on destroyed golems, item and ranged clans have ammunition. Melee is probably the least disposable of the clans that have items, but I know I've seen several of their items destroyed as well.

Making items that have unlimited use now limited would not be friendly, and might well lead to firebombing. This would also be a penalty to large clans, as with, say, seventy players, you'd constantly need to be making replacement items, and wouldn't even have time for ammo. Ammo alone is enough of a punishment. : () )
Anri
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Posts: 229
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 104 years old
Clan: ADV
Real Name: Lily
Message #32937 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 3:08 am
It takes several hours for 1 piece of armour to be made, and since most golems will need at least 10 pieces, if not more it does take awhile for us to fit a new golem. Now add in that we have several people with golems needing the armour and it starts to add up. And if we get into a war and golems start getting destroyed that armour can disappear pretty fast... certainly faster than we can replace it. I'd hate to see that same armour or any other item degrading with time. It jus takes quite a bit of time to make this stuff and we can only make it one at a time for a whole group of people.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #32938 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 3:45 am
Magus is about transcending limitations folks, not living within them.

Thanks for the XP from the attacks Sconi.


The idea would be to have such things decay slowly at a balanced rate.

If ammos such a big issue.... come up with a solution. If the resource balance is good, and ammo is bad, then do the maths and ask Arkham if he can balance it a bit more favourably.


I was with a ranged weapon clan.
And I specialised in armour production.

So I can appreciate it's demands. That's a slight reason I got out of the ranged clan. (1) Couldn't play with other toys. (2) ammo production meant only a couple of people could play with the big (fun) stuff at a time.

If you try a melee weapon clan you'll notice most of the stuff isn't as good as Tiger Claws (which anyone can have). But ideally their stuff should not be too far out of line with ammo production. Same goes for item clans.
After all we want a fun, well-flavoured game not a "best-of" macho contest. Yes?
Last Edited: Jul 3, 2009, 3:46 am
Dilt
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Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 98 years old
Message #32940 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 4:52 am
I... have no idea where you are even coming from whatsoever right now. It is not fun for us production spammers to make new toys, keep up ammo supply, or to provide properly armed and armored clan guards for each clan member. We (at least, the ToMU folk) try to get as many new toys out as we can, as fast as we can. Having lanterns break down randomly to disrupt this is very bad, or any other item. Ammo is enough for our production line to take. We tend to have full armoury queue at all times, simply due to the ammo requirements our normal PvE usage takes up. When we get new toys, we tend to make as many as we can grind out, and puff them full of ammo. We generally make new toys until we have enough buffer so that if a few people take them, we still have several. If it gets thin, we start making more. Often, these items are lost in PvP (especially defender-weapons), and we have to spend 19(!) hours replacing it, plus ammo. Considering we have 30 members, that's 60*19 hours plus ammo to get everyone a dart tube on their defender and shadow guard. I don't want new lanterns or swords or bows or anything else breaking down and adding to it. You said to transend limits. I don't find adding new ones as transending them whatsoever.

Oh, and methinks Kep is planning to somewhat nerf those now-super-fast Tiger Claws.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #32950 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 6:29 am
Clan weaponry auto-magically returns to the clan when it gets knocked off.

Other stuff tends to drop, which is great because it means a tanked up defender is an armour-tree for a determined attacker. Thats a pretty cool balance of defence-cost-determination-reward-risk.


I read your post Dilt, and what I can see is your clan has an ammo production problem. As did Long Arms, and probably any other ranged weapon clan.
Admittedly what you spend in ammo resources I probably spend in repairing golem paintwork, so that tends to balance a bit.


I'm not surprised about the nerf of the TigerClaws. They went from average to extremely good. Although too much nerf will fall back to when ranged bows/darts/canon did as much damage as melee with none of the risk. I'm hoping to see weapon-speed averaged with golem-speed. So a fast weapon on a slow golem would be easy for the golem to wave about, and a slow weapon on a fast golem will have the golem agile but not over fast. Slow weapons on slow golems won't much difference. And rapier quick weapons on fast golems will be impressive but faster weapon = lighter weapon = less damage. As usual the strength boost will be a big factor, especially as it tends to bypass armour. But thats a different issue.

Adding new challenges increases the games overall scope.

If I follow the design concept of the game, it's not a first-person shooter. Things are supposed to take time. Remember how long each building level took to process. And how much saving and trading had to be done to get the resources. Similiar it seems for the clans. A large clan will take a long time to make flash things for everyone. It doesn't take long for my clan to fit out a defender or the lastest toy - but the balance is that it takes a bit longer to build the buildings. And in a clan raid, I'm toast.
Back in LongArms we occasionally had to pass around the best gear (to get the Big Game hunter achievement). It was almost a clan ceremony/rite of passage to get your turn. Forget about fitting such toys to defenders for all but the highest clan members (who donated heaps of resources to everyone) it simply wasn't feasiable - and it probably shouldn't be.

Edit: Here's a thought, Dilt. What if: your projection on the game dynamics be if all ammo sources were 20 times bigger? (ie same current costs/time but lasted twenty times longer). How would it affect things?

Edit2: By production lads, I was referring to the apprenticii
Last Edited: Jul 3, 2009, 6:42 am
Yamikuronue
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Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 102 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #32973 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 3:35 pm
We should transcend limits but it shouldn't be possible for everyone in the clan to play with the toys, and ammo issues are solely a ranged clan issue so it's our tough cookies but because you're in a non-ranged clan you want it to be more like a ranged clan and...

I'm sorry, I really can't follow your line of reasoning, Mist. So I'll reply to what I did follow:

1) Clan weaponry doesn't return when the golem is destroyed. Thus, things *are* lost over time.

2) We have to shell out for ammo *and* golem repairs. Our golems get trashed now due to not hanging back perfectly anymore. And you want to add *more* expenses? I think you don't understand the scale a large clan operates on. Smaller clans are often cozier because it's simple enough for them to share things around and make enough ammo. We have a lot more resources coming in - but we have to spend a lot more to keep up with everything.
[ADMIN] Arkham
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Posts: 902
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 110 years old
Clan: AGOMC
Real Name: Kep
Website: Click Here
Message #32975 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 4:00 pm
I won't be implementing degradable items. At least, not for weapons, armour, etc... Maybe in the future some new item will degrade like crops or caught fish.

Though you're not likely to attach those to golems anyway. "You can't attach the trout to your golem without nails!" "Your golem is festooned with broccoli." I seem to be slipping into a bizarre train of thought.

Anyway, no degrading weapons, armour, etc. The reasons being pretty much what's already been said: resources and time creating new items is already hefty.

Kep
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 102 years old
Message #32979 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 5:19 pm
Actually, a degrading weapon would be a good mechanic, as long as it's rare... For example a fast, reasonably powerful melee weapon built of glass, but that only lasts about twenty rounds.

But yes, other than in special cases, I think that weapons and armour shouldn't degrade.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #32984 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 7:28 pm
Sconibulus said:

Actually, a degrading weapon would be a good mechanic, as long as it's rare... For example a fast, reasonably powerful melee weapon built of glass, but that only lasts about twenty rounds.

But yes, other than in special cases, I think that weapons and armour shouldn't degrade.


Yeah now you're getting the idea!

Such things should only affect optional stuff. The core game golems & clan essentials "are quality". I have enough golems falling apart now.
It's the ability to throw in some extras (especially cross clan, or totally optional items like a fast glass sword, or cheap arse bullseye lantern) that add a little spice to the game, but without unbalancing it.




With regards to items like lanterns, it means its a choice whether to bother with it. Its handy and cheap but not essential. A flashy Fish-powered LAW rocket is a possibility, but then people get to weigh up - spend the resources on a bit of a dead end ... or go with something less impressive but less hassle/expense. Stuff that is expensive (clan research slots!) represents the acme of their art, and being expensive need to last to make it worthwhile. But then that limits the scope of the game considerably.


I was thinking about the ammo.
Would it be worth having an ammo building, built off the Armory for ranged clans. Max level = current level of Armory. SM could set the daily production of ammo from the building, the limit of which is set by the level of the sub building. The ammo types would be limited to the level of the ammo building.
The idea being this in addition to the existing production queues. So low level ranged clans would just churn out a couple of thing as per normal. But for bigger clans, they can commit the resources to a moderate cheap building which will take away the constant need for having to "queue spam", they could use their production queue to make toys and ammo (the latter to boost supplies in a war emergency),
and if they want -lots- of ammo large clans would have enough people to provide resources to provide a bigger ammo-shop/bowyer.
Sconibulus
Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 102 years old
Message #32985 Posted: Jul 3, 2009, 7:51 pm
The bronze lanterns are already barely worth it for the weight and hand slots... they don't need to degrade. I was actually thinking the glass sword might be a melee specialization weapon, and could appear unbalanced due to their disposable nature, much like demon bags.

Also... a lot of your arguments seem to be based on the fact that everyone gets all the items in the armoury... don't you guys share? Other than our defense weapons which we put on most clan golems, our good stuff sits in our armoury where people can borrow it as necessary, and return it when done, so there's no real "best item" mentality, just the most useful one for the current job.

Other than those arguments, I'm really not sure what you're trying to say, although that cross-specialty item thing I think you hinted at seems like a poor, unbalanced idea.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #33009 Posted: Jul 4, 2009, 9:04 am
Our we did share, but a Bronze cannon does a lot of damage but uses very expensive ammo. So it can only be effectively used by 4 or 5 members consistantly.

The bows were good for basic hunting, but needed constant production to keep members supplied with arrows. In the end it just worked out (for this mid-level magus,) easier to hunt without the bows so there would be ammo.



The best item mentality comes in when someone gets an idea that a weapon/item TYPE just -should- be better than the rest "because it is". So ranged folk will want something powerful enough to bring down giants+ without contact ever, melee will want something that they can get to combat range and hit "puree", the defence folks will want some powerful armour that stops the above because thats what good armour does. The magic guys will want a spell that bypasses everything above because magic is specially powerful so workshops become untouchable and attackers are blasted away, preferrably before their magi even thinks of attacking...

Yamikuronue
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Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 102 years old
Real Name: Bay
Website: Click Here
Message #33011 Posted: Jul 4, 2009, 10:45 am
I fail to see how wanting nice things is a bad thing? Seriously, if you think about it, by maxing out the clan library everyone should be able to get an uberweapon - that is, the best weapon/item of its type in the game.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #33039 Posted: Jul 4, 2009, 10:40 pm
head-desk
GordonIronsmith
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Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 99 years old
Message #33040 Posted: Jul 5, 2009, 12:04 am
Ya if you max out your Library, You should get something Amazing (or at least really cool). It doesn't need to be so good it breaks the game, it just should better then its predecessors. My Clan has a Good level Library, and as a spell clan we haven't got primary upgrades for a long time, so I think I can rightly say, if you build something big and expensive, you should be rewarded. (Kep I'd love some spells XD )

Mist Not too dash your Idea's, but Low level items shouldn't out shine high level items. other wise there's no point to making them, or building the Library levels.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #33050 Posted: Jul 5, 2009, 6:06 am
Aye, high level stuff needs to "be good"
but whats to stop a high level clan giving a noob the best toys, and pumping them resources to max there farms.

What is left in the game for them to actually play?
Xlrate
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Posts: 232
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 94 years old
Message #33053 Posted: Jul 5, 2009, 1:49 pm
and good lord knows that levels are a pian to get in the clan buildings.....

even for the "big boys"
GordonIronsmith
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Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 99 years old
Message #33062 Posted: Jul 5, 2009, 6:15 pm
You could load up a noob, but why? You give them a bow or a pointy stick and they're good till they level up a bunch. And I had help building up my resources, that help just meant I could avoid some of the more painfully slow parts of the game.
Mist
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Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 92 years old
Message #33067 Posted: Jul 5, 2009, 7:36 pm
Why not?

Admittedly it's a different mindset in a ranged clan.
The ammo levels mean its better to have fast producing arrows churning out.

In a melee clan (and an alchemy clan) it is not much effort to hand someone the highest level weapon the Armoury can make, and pretty much no reason to produce a low level weapon. To make low level weapons just means having to repeat the build later for a high level item. Or in the case of Alchemy clans, the lowest member has access to the most potent transmutions anyway.
Add in the idea that senior member will often make available flesh-puppets or a ok level bone/wood/transmuted-clay for hunting. After all it's really no effort for a max-building magus to pop out a basic hunter-golem.
Xlrate
Xlrate's Avatar
Posts: 232
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 94 years old
Message #33077 Posted: Jul 6, 2009, 2:54 am
Alchemy clans though are not popular, for proof of this look up how many people are in active primary alchemy clans.
 
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