| Author | Thread: weapons production [LOCKED] |
| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33705 Posted: Jul 19, 2009, 6:54 am |
Waiting for first Spiked Chain to roll off the production line....
Rubs hands in antici...<wait for it>...pation.
I sure hope that the "Range/Weapon length" code is working! |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #33717 Posted: Jul 19, 2009, 4:30 pm |
Yes It should be.
This weapon gained loads from reach going live and lost loads from weapon speed going live. In balance it's not as good as it used to be.
(Although in the gap between the two updates it was the ultimate weapon, I was getting around 7 hits a round with between 50 and 70 damage per hit and nearly always hitting first!! those where the days :) )
Having said that if all slots where wiped I would still select this weapon again as it is still a great addition to a hunter.
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33727 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 6:49 am |
Doesn't look like the Range stuff is working properly.
I've got a 30ft reach on my weapon, and combat starts at 45+ ft. But I'm getting hit 4-5 times before my first shot which comes at the end of Round 2.
Lvl 1 Flesh to Iron, boosted strength, Air Gem, Ruby eyes.
[Round 1] Mr Plod begins to aggressively advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade begins to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. Both combatants are out of range with about 42 feet between them.
[Round 2] Mr Plod continues to aggressively advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade closes to melee with Mr Plod.
A kobold nightshade attacks with its fists and misses 3 times, but also hits the chest (3 dmg), the right leg (3 dmg), the chest (3 dmg), the right leg (3 dmg) and the right arm (3 dmg).
Mr Plod attacks with its spiked chain and misses 3 times, but also hits once on the left arm (112 dmg -- CRITICAL HIT!).
Last Edited: Jul 20, 2009, 6:50 am |
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33728 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 6:54 am |
Without the misses this time:
A halo of violet light surrounds Mr Plod, enhancing its strength. Mr Plod begins to aggressively advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade begins to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. Both combatants are out of range with about 35 feet between them.
[Round 2] Mr Plod continues to aggressively advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade closes to melee with Mr Plod.
A kobold nightshade attacks with its fists and misses 3 times, but also hits the abdomen (3 dmg), the pelvis (3 dmg), the chest (3 dmg), the right hand (3 dmg) and the chest (3 dmg).
Mr Plod uses its spiked chain and hits once on the abdomen (58 dmg).
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 139 years old Clan: ADV | Message #33731 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 11:12 am |
Does anyone know what the reach of a Kobold Nightshade is?
I mean the combat is simultaneous, which seems to imply the kobold has matching reach. Not sure how that would work. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #33733 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 2:24 pm |
| I am guessing it's your aggressive stance, I haven't done much experimenting with it, but it says the golem won't use ranged weapons when it's set to aggressive. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #33734 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 3:02 pm |
| Um, you weren't supposed to hit in either of those situations, your golem gets 4 feet of reach per level, as a level 1, that's four feet, plus thirty from the chain, so thirty-four feet total. Those rounds broke at 35 and 42, both of which are greater than 34. I think it's working fine. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #33735 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 4:21 pm |
Sconibulus is correct. That's what it appears to be to me -- a case of being JUST out of range. I've seen that in testing about as often as I get in the "sweet spot" and maul something with it unable to strike back. Depends on what you hunt, what golem you're using, and a host of other factors of course.
Reach weapons are considered melee weapons, so aggressive stance won't force the golem to ignore using them.
Kep |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 139 years old Clan: ADV | Message #33748 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 10:25 pm |
| Just out of curiosity, how does larger reach limbs (level 3 and level 5) on a level one torso impact the reach equations? Or do they anymore? |
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33749 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 10:44 pm |
| Sconibulus said:
Um, you weren't supposed to hit in either of those situations, your golem gets 4 feet of reach per level, as a level 1, that's four feet, plus thirty from the chain, so thirty-four feet total. Those rounds broke at 35 and 42, both of which are greater than 34. I think it's working fine.
So the golem waits until the bell goes for round 2 before swinging?
Clearly the golem should swing when the opponent gets with in range, just as the opponent should swing when they get in range.
Therefore the one with the longest range always get first shot.
That's how range works. That's why there are long/hafted weapons!
That's the bugbear of short weapons, that one has to survive long enough to get into weapon range.
Hence my initial concern that range might not be functioning properly.
Aggressive, Normal and Hangback don't seem to affect it as the monster always seems to cover the 34ft gap instantaneously (ie at 80ft, nothing happens, 42 ft nothing happens, then we're toe-to-toe and no length/size effect and only speed matters)Last Edited: Jul 20, 2009, 10:45 pm |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #33750 Posted: Jul 20, 2009, 11:37 pm |
The problem is that your golem doesn't come quite close enough to use the spiked chain. You will find that the chain's range has the most affect when you get conditions just right. Based on monster speed, golem speed, weather, day/night, and swamp. If your golem had closed to within 32 feet from the monster, you would have gotten free shots at the monster and probably won.
Round zero - 100 feet between
Round one - 35+ feet between no attack with lvl 1 golem/ 33- feet golem reaches out with spiked chain
Round two - golem and monster close to melee (chain reach becomes moot) |
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| Dilt Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #33751 Posted: Jul 21, 2009, 1:51 am |
Higher level arms do not affect reach at all so far as my testing shows. It's only the golem main torso.
Level 1 = 4ft
Level 2 = 8ft
Level 3 = 12ft
Level 4 = 16ft
Level 5 = 20ft
Most monsters are faster than golems, due to the fact that the monsters are actually alive. They also tend to have decent reaches. Nowhere near the 50ft reach that a level 5 golem with spiked chain would get, though. |
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33752 Posted: Jul 21, 2009, 3:00 am |
| Nanashi said:
The problem is that your golem doesn't come quite close enough to use the spiked chain. You will find that the chain's range has the most affect when you get conditions just right. Based on monster speed, golem speed, weather, day/night, and swamp. If your golem had closed to within 32 feet from the monster, you would have gotten free shots at the monster and probably won.
Round zero - 100 feet between
Round one - 35+ feet between no attack with lvl 1 golem/ 33- feet golem reaches out with spiked chain
Round two - golem and monster close to melee (chain reach becomes moot)
Problem with all those calcs is that they require the monster to be within striking range at the beginning of the round and combat speed is such that a monster will close 40ish feet in a given round - ie neutralising a weapon with reach.
It is only on the odd, random, occasion when at the start of the round the monster is at 33 or 34 feet does an extra reach weapon become usable. In which it gets a round of attack and then toe-to-toe.
Contrast the Spike chains with another weapon, the Iron Halberd.
The halberd has range 25ft. A monster would have to be even closer, but because of the increase in speed the halberd hits before the monster 50% of the time. But again any reach is redundant as monsters dont appear within 'greater than melee' but 'less than 30 ft'
As you can see I get kills at 50-54 ft.
[Round 1]Mr Plod begins to advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade begins to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. Both combatants are out of range with about 50 feet between them.
[Round 2] Mr Plod continues to advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade continues to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. The defender's reinforced nunchuku is out of range with about 3 feet between them, but the attacker readies its spiked chain.
Mr Plod uses its spiked chain and hits once on the pelvis (46 dmg).
And I do get a rare kill at 32-34 feet.
But if the target is 35->50 feet my golem gets scratched up. That doesn't make game sense (although yes I know how to program so I understand why it isn't working properly)
Last Edited: Jul 21, 2009, 3:11 am |
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #33761 Posted: Jul 21, 2009, 1:01 pm |
terrain and weapon speed. As much as the golem with a spiked chain can wait for something to come into range and whack it - you STILL need to execute the actual whacking.
Let's say I am at 35'2" and I take a step forward. You pounce and attack me - but by golly, that weapon is slow and you absolutely telegraph the awesome attack. So, I run straight forward and smack you with my nunchucks and THEN the chain sticks into the side of my head with a satisfying thunk.
Your golem looks back at you wryly and asks why he couldn't fight in a swamp, or somewhere that actively reduces the opponents per-round combat movement. Maybe even somewhere that could actually give you more than one round of free smackage.
Yes, IRL long hafted weapons were all the rage because the end of them already were in the enemies grill (not the case with a spiked chain) but if you have a 25' spike/blade, and I manage to sidestep it ... you are kinda done. It is slow, clumsy, and really - unless you back up it is useless. A Pikehedge is pretty nasty. You and a pike? not so much.
While I always imagine my golem to be programmed/smart enough to, well, wait and attack at an opportune moment -- I am satisfied with the spiked chain with the current coding. |
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33773 Posted: Jul 21, 2009, 7:36 pm |
| Tzadkiel said:
While I always imagine my golem to be programmed/smart enough to, well, wait and attack at an opportune moment -- I am satisfied with the spiked chain with the current coding.
I am not.
Hitting at 55' and hitting at 33' but not at 44'.
That's a fail |
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| Dilt Posts: 167
Location: Fellin
Magus Age: 118 years old
| Message #33774 Posted: Jul 21, 2009, 8:06 pm |
| ... I think you're wrong here, Mist. I don't see anywhere in this thread that the spined chain hit at 55'. If I'm wrong, show me, but it doesn't seem as if anything's broken at all. |
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33780 Posted: Jul 21, 2009, 11:20 pm |
Head desk. Is it really that hard people. I know most of you haven't been in combat but the maths is pretty basic enough.
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At 55' the monster closes.
And gets to about 3'. So it gets hit on the incoming charge (and can't hit because it's range <3'.
Then 1 round later it's in melee.
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At 33' the monster is in range. So it gets hit. But being out of range itself it does not hit back until it closes.
The 1 round later it's in melee but its effectively been in melee already.
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So 33' and 55' the monster is hit on the incoming charge.
=========================================================
At 44' the monster is out of range, the monster is also out of range for its own attacks. So it or the golem, must close (charge).
But 1 round later its in melee.
And because of its speed the monster gets first, and more attacks.
So why does a monster travelling from 55' get hit on the oncoming charge, when a monster at 44' doesn't get hit - even when the golem is there waiting
"Waiting" proved by the fact that a monster "appearing" at 33' gets hit on the first round (ie NO "wind up" excuse)
* * * * * * *
If you don't see the point, then run the above scenairo through with a weapon of 5' length.Last Edited: Jul 21, 2009, 11:21 pm |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #33781 Posted: Jul 22, 2009, 12:01 am |
It works that way for the same reason a golem will back up out of range of it's own weapon on hangback sometimes, even when it's still in range of the enemy, and golems with ranged weapons refusing to use fists. It's because weapon and actions are calculated at the beginning of the round before any movement, in/out of range and attacks are calculated after movement.
Kep says that changing that would be way too complicated, I'm not entirely sure that he's right, but it would require a combat overhaul, although I do think that at least part of it is necessary, golems not using fists in close combat is rather crippling should the opponent be fast enough or survive long enough to close the gap. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #33782 Posted: Jul 22, 2009, 12:18 am |
| Mist said:
As you can see I get kills at 50-54 ft.
[Round 1]Mr Plod begins to advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade begins to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. Both combatants are out of range with about 50 feet between them.
[Round 2] Mr Plod continues to advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade continues to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. The defender's reinforced nunchuku is out of range with about 3 feet between them, but the attacker readies its spiked chain.
Mr Plod uses its spiked chain and hits once on the pelvis (46 dmg).
Might I point out with your own example that you are doing nothing at 50 feet?
50 is how close they get at the start of the first round from about 100 at round 0 (which is normally never shown cause nothing ever happens)
Round 2 your golem and the kobold close to 3 feet when your golem reaches out to attack with the spiked chain.
If the kobold had managed to survive, it would have attacked in round 3 at point blank range.
The order that attacks are listed when both sides are able to fight is irrelevant. They are simply grouped together to make it easier to display. Attacker's blows in a list and defender's blows in a list. |
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| Mist Posts: 291
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #33797 Posted: Jul 22, 2009, 8:26 am |
Nanashi said: Mist said:
As you can see I get kills at 50-54 ft.
[Round 1]Mr Plod begins to advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade begins to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. Both combatants are out of range with about 50 feet between them.
[Round 2] Mr Plod continues to advance upon a kobold nightshade while a kobold nightshade continues to aggressively advance upon Mr Plod. The defender's reinforced nunchuku is out of range with about 3 feet between them, but the attacker readies its spiked chain.
Mr Plod uses its spiked chain and hits once on the pelvis (46 dmg).
Might I point out with your own example that you are doing nothing at 50 feet? 50 is how close they get at the start of the first round from about 100 at round 0 (which is normally never shown cause nothing ever happens) Round 2 your golem and the kobold close to 3 feet when your golem reaches out to attack with the spiked chain. If the kobold had managed to survive, it would have attacked in round 3 at point blank range. The order that attacks are listed when both sides are able to fight is irrelevant. They are simply grouped together to make it easier to display. Attacker's blows in a list and defender's blows in a list.
I'm doing nothing at 50' (really gee whiz I must have so totally missed that. Wipes dripping sarcasm off screen).
That "nothing" is waiting for it to get into range.
So what is different from waiting at 50' cf. waiting at 44'??? NOTHING.
I can still swing if range @ round 1 = 33' so it can't be a "preparation thing".
Gods I hate you stupid people and lazy programmers.
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #33800 Posted: Jul 22, 2009, 2:27 pm |
| Mist said:
Gods I hate you stupid people and lazy programmers.
Hate? for a free game in which you control a magical robot imperfectly from a distance, that the math used to calculate dynamic combat situations is turn based instead of parallel upsets you that much ... |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #33804 Posted: Jul 22, 2009, 3:19 pm |
Thread getting too hot and going off topic.
Kep |
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