| Author | Thread: Relative Power Discussion - Clan Primaries. | Page 1 | 2 |
| Xlrate Posts: 232
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 108 years old
| Message #36818 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 7:51 am |
In theory, all of the different types of clans are supposed to be comparable (by primary attribute) yet apparently there are a "few" discrepancies.
Please feel free to jump in and correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe I am too far afield when I state that a majority of the types of clans (weapons, items, armor and ranged) get significant bonuses as they get higher and comparatively alchemy and magic primary clans get well boned...
I mean at level 7 alchemy clans peak with the ability to make Iron to elemental golems (although I would argue that Iron to Bone are the only ones worth using) and magic clans get NOTHING after level 5 (except more spell slots but really.....)
Now I do not PvP but I would love to know how as a Alchemy clan I am supposed to defend my workshop with lets say the best golem available to me, a level 5 Iron -> Bone golem against golems with the following:
Item clans: Improved Steam Engines
Melee Weapon Clans: Spiked Chains and Addy Maces and the like
Ranged Clans: Mortar Cannons
Armor Clans: Adamantine Banded + Shield equipped golems.
Assume for arguments sake here that my alchemy clan is level 20 (not that it would do any good)....
Suggestions:
New Spells are needed, and these need to be upgrades. Make them expensive to use or research or whatever, but make some powerful spells. A spell clan should have a way to defeat any other clan, if they are there and of sufficient level.
For alchemy clans.... well we need more powerful golems for one. I suggest allowing the stone to gem transmutation at level 8. I believe the Stone -> Gem golems would be about as effective as the level 10(ish) gear that other primary clans could have. |
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PeggaPosts: 702 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: ADV | Message #36823 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 12:20 pm |
| Or, throw in something that the other clans cannot get (because of their path). Maybe some Flesh/Wood/Stone -> Diamond golems, or Iron -> Steel golems, or Bone -> Ghost. Dunno. First thoughts written freely down. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #36828 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 2:25 pm |
| If you pvp'd you'd probably know that the spiked chain isn't all that hot anymore, armor cancels it out quite easily these days. But I agree we could all use some more options, especially spells and alchemy. Probably just my personal bias, but from what I've seen items and ranged are the current leaders in relative power/usefulness. |
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 123 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #36839 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 5:20 pm |
This is accurate to a point.
I know that in the case of both Items and Melee, the Library levels surpassed the actual product available to us. Ark released code in order to satisfy the large need to justify why we just spent 80 million iron. Are your libraries leading or lagging development?
Further: Melee, Ranged, Defense and Items are very easy to invent items that require almost no testing. Item does X damage, weighs Y and is readied on Z part. A database entry and little more. Yes, I want something gee whiz that is unique, but likely I can be placated with a +10 vorpal sword for a few more months.
Alchemy and Spells? They require code. Spells at least have a framework in place to allow implement new ideas. Sure, we can have "even nastier burning aura" but spells expect more. Melee - at some level - can't expect too much more than a sharper sword. Spells and Alchemy are designed to break some of the basic numbers game of offensive clans.
I do not defend the fact that it appears that y'all have been a bit hosed. (well, spells knew that when they chose the specialty). I merely acknowledge and understand why that is the case. :(Last Edited: Sep 23, 2009, 4:08 pm |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #36841 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 8:23 pm |
| I think we'd all like to see more development in our niches, the question in my mind is how to help Kep produce balanced, level appropriate stuff. We're just about to gain a clan library level, but all we gain access to is apparently a slightly different version of something we've already got(and a more powerful PvP wall smasher), which is somewhat disappointing and probably reflected in most clans at some point. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #36844 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 8:55 pm |
Tzadkiel hit the nail on the head: Items, Melee, Ranged, and Defense clans can all get new stuff by creating new items. Coding isn't required at all because new items are created entirely through admin control panels.
Both Alchemy and Spells are much more work intensive in that their new stuff has to be coded AND more heavily tested since they do things "left of center."
Hopefully things will get better as there are some new admins that are thus far doing a great job of taking some of the workload off of me (and you'll see some of their new creations soon enough, mwhahaha).
Kep |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #36846 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 9:15 pm |
To follow up...
What are the weapon/item attributes most valued by high level clans? Speed? Light weight? More damage? Lower slot requirements?
Kep |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #36847 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 9:21 pm |
Personally I'm gonna say speed and damage (which almost seem to mean the same thing in the long run) , followed by weight with slots last. Also, as I've mentioned before, it'd be neat to see things that aren't just straight weapons- glowing sword takes down night penalties, woodland staff makes you harder to hit by ranged, etc (of course I'm highlighting my specialty here, I'm sure everyone else would like similar stuff) though I don't know if the code would support this without a lot of work.
Edit: Also, the other variable at work is energy use, which we have no idea of when we pick out a weapon, but that can make a huge difference in it's actual usefulness. For example, if the greatsword with it's super slow speed of 3 had a very low energy use, it might be worth using, but at face value we're never going to pick it up, because judging by the maulhammer something with a speed of 3 is near useless.Last Edited: Sep 22, 2009, 11:14 pm |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #36850 Posted: Sep 22, 2009, 11:12 pm |
Speed and Damage are the very top, which is more important is dependent on the armour of the fought foe.
Range and Energy are next down, although energy is kindof hidden, so guesses must be made. Range of attack would probably grow to be much less of an issue if our golems were capable of melee, but as it stands a 50 foot range against a foe with any kind of reach you better be able to kill it in a round, three at most, or you're dead.
Slots and Weight are both important, but much less so. Slots grow more important when they attach to a vital area, such as torso or head, as those slots are hit more often and so need more armour, also they often hold other items. Weight only really grows to be even a minor issue when it grows to levels above about 50 pounds. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #36854 Posted: Sep 23, 2009, 12:32 am |
Speaking for a Defense Clan, our concerns are Weight and Slots, with armour value (anti-damage) - or other defensive trait - close behind. Although if other Defense folks feel differently, please speak up.
That being said, I think all Defense folks accept the fact that for the most part, the higher weight/slots are what will have the higher protection since no one realistically expects walking tanks to be bringing home much loot from creatures or raids. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #37169 Posted: Sep 28, 2009, 6:10 pm |
Repeater dart tube: ranged level 10, +15 piercing, +15% accuracy, 80ft range, 18 speed (per wiki)
Black sai: melee level 11, +15 piercing, +15% accuracy, 0 range, 10 speed
I don't know about slots or weight, but it seems like the level 10 ranged item is significantly better than melee's level 11.
Especially now that we have to wade through 5 rounds of dragon breath to even touch the snazzy new monsters. |
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| Namebreaker Posts: 83
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #37172 Posted: Sep 28, 2009, 6:51 pm |
Don't forget to factor in ammunition. Once you make a melee weapon, your one time cost is over with. Ranged weapons have to be paid for forever. Though the gap between the two weapons given seems a little excessive, even accounting for that.
The breath weapons of the dragons has effectively neutralized the advantage of ranged weapons completely, for the record.
The range of the breath weapons is over 100 feet. Even when my Golems back up, I'm still getting hit for serious damage. So, against the ranged monsters, I'm effectively paying for ammunition for no distinct advantage other than getting to return fire from the start, which is countered by having my Golem's face eaten off at closer than minimum ranges where it can't use the ranged weapon at all and sits there looking dumb.
~Namebreaker |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #37173 Posted: Sep 28, 2009, 7:03 pm |
| Right, I figure being able to hit from round 1-ish cancels out the cost of ammo, but I have to wait through 5 rounds give or take of dragon breath before having a chance to touch the dragon, so I'd still count the range as an advantage there. |
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| Namebreaker Posts: 83
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #37174 Posted: Sep 28, 2009, 7:07 pm |
Sorry about the tangent.
Sticking to the topic at hand, ranged prominence is probably primary in speed, in my opinion. Because ammunition is only consumed by the round instead of by the number of shots per round, the more potential hits (and misses) in a round, the better.
Factoring in minimum damage, a ranged weapon that has a speed of 50 and a damage of 1 is far more advantageous for ranged weapons than a speed of 1 and a damage of 50. This applies in every conceivable way, from PvE to PvP.
I'll take a gatling gun style weapon over a howitzer style weapon, any day. Hence the very high popularity of the repeater dart tube over many of the other much harder hitting weapons of it's level bracket.
Edit: NUMBER OF ROUNDS PRODUCED PER STACK OF AMMUNITION!
I don't know if I would consider this more important than speed or not, but it's either in 1st or 1.5st place for importance to ranged clans.
Ammunition is constantly being produced within a ranged clan, and at the top of the list of discussion within a ranged clan is who gets to use what tier of weapons based on HOW MUCH AMMO IS PRODUCED IN A DAY.
Time for producing ammunition is not shortened by how high the Great Hall or the Armory levels are, unlike a Mage's workshop affecting how quickly our artificing is done. What this means is Ranged Clans can only produce a certain amount of ammunition per day. Period. Roughly 37 stacks of dart, 72 arrows, 24 cannonballs, 30 noise stones, (don't know the time consumption on bullets), or some combination of the above, per day, for the entire clan.
It's irrelevant whether there are 2 people in a ranged clan or 200. Only the same amount of ammunition can be made. Which means that the number of pieces of ammo produced in a stack is actually very important for the functionality of a ranged clan, and therefore the weapons that they use. Even if the build times for ammunition could be reduced by raising a building or what have you, this would still continue to always be a huge factor in ranged clans.
EDIT (2): Increasing your armory does decrease the production times. However, it does not do so significantly enough to eliminate this issue for ranged clans. Even with these reductions, this is still a high priority.
Tied for secondary prominence for ranged weaponry would be bonus accuracy and range, in my opinion. Hitting more often per round via increased accuracy means the opponent is more likely to be destroyed before making melee contact, and in fewer rounds there by wasting less ammo. Range is about equally important due to being able to begin your damage tally sooner, with relatively similar results to missing less from accuracy bonuses.
Tertiary would be energy consumption. As was stated earlier in the thread, it's a hidden stat. It's difficult for me to ascertain the value of more or less energy consumption vs the other stats since I can't accurately analyze it, other than to say that the less energy a weapon consumes, the more shots can be made before melee occurs without the Golem stalling out.
~NamebreakerLast Edited: Sep 29, 2009, 1:57 pm |
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| Namebreaker Posts: 83
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #37175 Posted: Sep 28, 2009, 7:11 pm |
Speaking strictly about the dragons: I get 5 rounds to exchange fire before it melees. Once it melees, my Golem stands there and takes it without returning any type of attack what so ever. This usually lasts over all about 5-6 rounds of the combat.
Melee gets beat up on the way in for 5 rounds.
Ranged gets beat up for 5 rounds once melee starts.
Ranged still pays for ammo. There's still a call for a small bump to ranged over melee for paying for ammunition for the length of the use of the weapon.
I still agree that the weapon stats are a little off in comparison, even factoring that in. But not by a lot.
~Namebreaker |
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| Namebreaker Posts: 83
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #37179 Posted: Sep 28, 2009, 8:20 pm |
Speaking for Defensive Clan armor, I think the major contributing factor of what makes the cut is weight vs over all protection. Especially the secondary defenses: Fire, Cold, and Sonic.
Unlike weapon clans, defensive clan's armor is more or less competing against the effectiveness of something that any Mage can produce if they choose.
Ultimately, what this breaks down to is whether or not it's worth taking up a slot for the clan that is effective enough to out strip a piece of armor that can be made by a single individual. Looking through the lower levels, the only real pieces that do so are the one's that are significantly better than their common counterparts at a reduced weight. In my opinion, none of the adamantine or copper series are worth getting at all for these reasons. For the comparable weight vs protection, Heavy and Medium plate out strip them easily, making them practically worthless and never chosen.
Lastly, a big advantage that can be given to Defensive Clans that would make them a cut above the average armor Mage would be secondary defenses. Unfortunately, from what I've seen up to this point, it doesn't seem to be really utilized effectively. At least not to an extent that would make it worth choosing in a Clan slot that couldn't be made by anyone.
Obviously, a big factor for this is the fact that clan armor goes back to the clan if it's dropped. However, I believe that this is a selling point for choosing the Defensive Clan path in general, not for choosing armor pieces on an individual basis.
~NamebreakerLast Edited: Sep 28, 2009, 8:29 pm |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #37265 Posted: Sep 30, 2009, 12:11 am |
Well, as to the lower level armours, I agree you are in competition with the standard items all Magi can learn to make. Eventually you do pass that threshold to better armours than Magi can learn, though the argument for the specialized elemental protection kicking in earlier has some merit.
The advantage of Shields shouldn't be overlooked however, as they can negate some of the advantages of better eyes/equipment with their block rate. |
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| Xlrate Posts: 232
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 108 years old
| Message #37610 Posted: Oct 7, 2009, 6:15 am |
| Talk about gimping a clan, my clan is alchemy primary, magic secondary.... |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #37616 Posted: Oct 7, 2009, 12:59 pm |
| Xlrate said:
Talk about gimping a clan, my clan is alchemy primary, magic secondary....
Pish posh. Our magic secondary is what makes half of what we do possible. You just have to know what to do with it. |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #37624 Posted: Oct 7, 2009, 3:52 pm |
Magic is fun! Really powerful spells which are great for normal grinds, not so much for the dragons, but for everything else it's great. The only thing holding back my clan is we need more ranged items :P and it takes a long time to get anything good. Has anyone ever mentioned that upgrading clan buildings is a huge undertaking, it'll take at least a couple mouths for SFC to build our next library level.
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #37625 Posted: Oct 7, 2009, 4:02 pm |
The current contender for this week's building poll:
19,461,953 Flesh
15,569,562 Bone
38,923,906 Wood
35,031,515 Clay
46,708,687 Stone
38,923,906 Iron
3,892,391 Money
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #37636 Posted: Oct 7, 2009, 6:15 pm |
Sometime in the near future (unless I forget) I'm going to run a comparison between some of the defense clan armours and dragon scales. (Speaking of which, if anyone has any information on either of those, please update the wiki)
My suspicion, before looking, is that Dragon Scales are similar to or slightly better the bone mails or later armours, which seems reasonable, providing that by level 12 or so Defense gets armour slightly better, or if by level 14-15 Defense clans can somehow use one of these scales in item creation. For example turning an Enigmatic Dragon Scale turn it into Enigmatic Scale Mail, for maybe a 75% bonus to physical, a 33% bonus to elemental, and a 25% increase in weight.
People may argue that the scales are very rare items, and while that is true right now, like most armour, they won't tend to be destroyed very frequently. Remember, unless a golem is completely destroyed, armour can be salvaged by either the attacker, the defender, or some random passerby. This will lead to the scales being merely a relatively uncommon item, and I'd be surprised if after a few months they're all still more expensive than a mere Steam Engine. |
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| Xlrate Posts: 232
Location: Rildesjan
Magus Age: 108 years old
| Message #37665 Posted: Oct 8, 2009, 1:25 am |
| GordonIronsmith said:
Magic is fun! Really powerful spells which are great for normal grinds, not so much for the dragons, but for everything else it's great. The only thing holding back my clan is we need more ranged items :P and it takes a long time to get anything good. Has anyone ever mentioned that upgrading clan buildings is a huge undertaking, it'll take at least a couple mouths for SFC to build our next library level.
That time could be shortened significantly with the return of a single bag of popcorn.... ;)
Then your clan would be free to join mine to transmute limitless resources. :)Last Edited: Oct 8, 2009, 1:26 am |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #41580 Posted: Jan 21, 2010, 6:28 pm |
So, any word on new stuff for any of the clans? I'm noticing that on a lot of the new creatures (dragons, kobold godslayer, etc) they have such high armor across the board that melee weapons, and probably ranged too, add nothing except a bit of accuracy and possibly speed. This makes things like the hellfire chain utterly useless, because doing 11 damage per hit at 5 speed to that godslayer is worse than doing 4 damage per hit at 18 speed. Much worse. Then there are the creatures with 2 ranged attacks and decent speed where fairly often we'll never even get close enough to touch them, or maybe just for a round or 2, meaning only a ranged clan would have a chance against them.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be things that each clan is better against (as Atropos touched on with the elemental lords), and I don't know how to balance it so our weaponry is useful and yet not overpowered, but I'd like to see something happen, as I'm sure others would too. Heck, I'd just like to see some new options, even if they're not stellar.Last Edited: Jan 21, 2010, 6:38 pm |
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SoujiPosts: 1376 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #41909 Posted: Feb 4, 2010, 8:23 pm |
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