| Author | Thread: The Problem with Alchemy | Page 1 | 2 |
| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37397 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 12:38 am |
| I transmuted a golem, my starter golem, and now it is stuck at the clan I transmuted it at. I certainly don't recall a red lettered warning of my golem being stuck at the clan after transmuting it. This is a problem and would not have done it if I had the proper warning. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #37402 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 1:31 am |
Ummm... have you payed attention to any of the threads talking about alchemy?? It has been mentioned multiple times that when a golem is transmuted it will revert to the clan depot if you leave, just like any clan items you might have in your possession or in your name. This is to separate the alchemy specialty from other clans. Any transmuted golem also can't be sold on the market.
Depending on the alchemy clan, not sure if transmuting a golem back to the original type would allow you to keep the golem. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37406 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 2:46 am |
| Honestly, no I haven't read up in the forums on it. I am a transfer member that was doing ti to benefit my clan resource wise. Either way a warning would have been nice. The fact that a warning isn't built into the game for something that can make you lose a golem is kinda big. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #37412 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 7:08 am |
Well... not sure how effective it would be for your clan in the long run, you can only hold so many resources at a time and it costs motivation to transmute anything through an alchemy clan. (only the farms don't cost moti)
I thought there was a check when you try to convert a golem, and it asks you whether or not you really want to convert it. If so, it doesn't say anything then?
Xlrate started SUPCOR so people could come and transmute basic resources since everyone pretty much always has a surplus of flesh and bone and not enough stone and iron for building. He would have no reason to specially warn you that you can't keep golems you transmute when you leave.
Sorry if it sounds mean, but the forums offer warnings to anyone that reads them. I think it should also be mentioned in the Wiki [daryoon.hopto.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page]
If it isn't in the Newbie forum, it should be. And it isn't unfair, since transmuted golems are an alchemy clan commodity same as spiked chains for melee or improved steam engine for item clans. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 122 years old
| Message #37413 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 8:29 am |
| The wiki's page on Alchemy is pretty terrible, it could use some help. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37418 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 1:30 pm |
Yeah, the alchemy page at the wiki is... lacking.
And the only warning the game provided be with was that I cannot transfer or sell my golem after it was transmuted. That was a fact I didn't care about. I surely would not have done it if at the check screen or somewhere it clearly stated "After you transmuted this golem it will become clan properly forever" or something to the like.
I will be confirming if I get any other warning later today.
Be back with updates.
SIDE NOTE: If I cannot get my homunculus back it will suck. I will however not stop playing this game and have to simply count it as a very shitty loss. The only thing I WANT to get out of this is improved information on and warnings programed into the alchemy system.Last Edited: Oct 3, 2009, 1:31 pm |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37423 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 2:40 pm |
Update: Yeah, there are no other things warning you that the golem has become the clans until it is ripped from you basement when leaving.
I understand the earlier comment of golems being the commodity of an alchemy clan but players both make and then transmute the golem on their own from their own resources. Other things like weapons are made by the clan from the clan. Thus there is no confusion with who weapons belong to.
In the end of this all I think it will show that the alchemy system is underused, misunderstand and partly forgotten. As much more time and effort has gone into other game aspects and rightfully so, simple details that could improve the use of alchemy have been forgotten.
(Damn, I think I started to rant in there somewhere, sorry.) |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #37428 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 3:59 pm |
I think the warning is in the "cannot be transferred..." part. But Kep could probably reword it to be clearer.
If he has a library slot open, you might ask Xlrate if he will choose the option to be able to convert your homunculus back. (stone to flesh?) Not sure whether he will agree, but you could always ask.
And considering the state of alchemy clans, you are right that they tend to be overlooked. Converting a golem isn't as readily useful as a spiked chain, improved steam engine, repeater dart tube, shield, etc. When converting to a higher type, you get less attack because of a smaller damage bonus. When converting to a lower type you keep the carrying capacity but less resistance. |
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NaelwynPosts: 209 Location: Hans Mina Magus Age: 118 years old Clan: OTAKU2 | Message #37434 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 6:57 pm |
Transmuted golems are seriously underrated.
I consider them THE best clan tech in the entire game.
Adding this as a warning in the new player's forum FAQ. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 122 years old
| Message #37435 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 7:07 pm |
| It's not a matter of belonging to player versus clan, it's the ban on bringing clan tech to a different clan. Otherwise people could do what you did - join an alchemy clan, convert their golems, then go back to their ranged/meelee/defense/whatever clans and use these transmuted golems with their regular clan's stuff. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37437 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 9:27 pm |
@ Nanashi: If the warning is the cannot be transferred line all that needs to be done is add "From CLAN" to it and I think it would be more than enough.
@ Naelwyn: Glad to see awareness being spread. Maybe one of us should also do some updating to the wiki. Also I am sure there is some undiscovered way to completely abuse the alchemy system that could very well make it one of the best techs in the game but that's where underused comes into play. Unexplored too. I may dedicate some more time to research.
@ Yamikuronue: Ban on tech leaving the clan... well if I thought of it in that light I wouldn't be the big dummy that had to start this thread would I? :P
Finally...
Dear Kep,
I am a big dummy and tried to unsuccessfully exploit your game. I would not have done it if there where a few more warning on how the alchemy system worked but in the end quick gain though exploiting the system was my goal. If you can find it in your heart to return my homunculus Bob, in his oh so simple flesh form, to me I would be humbled. He is currently in the Clan SUPCOR Depot. If not I offer my experience and lost to simply ask that the proper red lettered warning are put in play to prevent other big dummies from doing what I did.
Keep up the great work, kinda wish I had made it far enough in programing class to make anything close to this.
~The Great Semaj |
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NaelwynPosts: 209 Location: Hans Mina Magus Age: 118 years old Clan: OTAKU2 | Message #37440 Posted: Oct 3, 2009, 11:22 pm |
I'll blatantly state why alchemy is awesome, because really, it's not horribly overpowered, it's JUST slightly better.
Alchemy becomes really good once you hit around library level 10.
Between 7-10, you get:
Stone -> Gem
Stone -> Glass
Iron -> Copper
Iron -> Bronze
Iron -> Brass
Iron -> Silver
Iron -> Gold
Another Ratio Reduction
Of these, the REALLY important ones are:
Stone -> Gem
Iron -> Copper
Iron -> Bronze
Iron -> Brass
Stone->Gem means you self-fuel.
The iron-exotics is where the oomph comes in. You can have a brass 5 with the ECL (AND ATTACK MOTI COST) of a flesh 5. Or a flesh with the carrying capacity of clay.
Though, I have absolutely no idea for what kep will add for above 10. All I can think of is Iron->Admantine at 15 or 20.
@Semaj: It's not too hard to get a BBG working. I can imagine this one in particular however was difficult, as I count at least three different languages/protocols/whathaveyous in it's implementation, and anything with cross language work is dismal, especially if you leave out comments.
(* Guess the language1:? *)
/* Guess the language2:? */
// Guess the language3:?
% Guess the language4:?
� _<Good Luck, Meatbag!>
�&A tilde;¢ï¿½ÂªÃ¢ ;��
�
My unicode robot! Noooo! :'(.Last Edited: Oct 3, 2009, 11:23 pm |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 122 years old
| Message #37449 Posted: Oct 4, 2009, 1:33 am |
| RE: the wiki: TOMU members update it regularly; I specifically add every new monster the day it comes out, and we're working on the specific strategies for defeating them. Naturally that means anything other than ranged or spell info is rather lacking. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #37453 Posted: Oct 4, 2009, 2:11 am |
| I have most of the Melee up there, but the formatting is ugly:( |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 130 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #37474 Posted: Oct 4, 2009, 7:01 pm |
I've added a more detailed warning when you're prompted for a confirm on transmuting.
Improving the motivation cost of a golem is not to be underestimated. That's a pretty powerful effect on hunting ability and PvP, and thus significantly impacts treasure and XP gains over time.
Higher levels of alchemy clans do need something interesting, though.
Kep |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 122 years old
| Message #37479 Posted: Oct 4, 2009, 9:23 pm |
| With the new Stables, however, it's less useful than it once was >.> |
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ShaylaPosts: 125 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 116 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #37482 Posted: Oct 4, 2009, 10:20 pm |
| Yamikuronue said:
With the new Stables, however, it's less useful than it once was >.>
That, and with weapon speed over-writing the golem speed, transmuted golems aren't worth what they used to be.
For a while there, transmuting a Clay golem into Bone was one of the best things about Alchemy. :)
<3, Shayla |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37508 Posted: Oct 5, 2009, 1:55 pm |
Well, new warnings in place. Goal accomplished. I sadly wave goodbye to Bob the Homunculus, at least he wasn't ripped to bits.
In the end I walkaway with new ideas and ambitions. Keep your eyes open for me, I may be showing my presence in much bigger way in the near future. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 120 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37511 Posted: Oct 5, 2009, 2:19 pm |
| Arkham said:
Higher levels of alchemy clans do need something interesting, though.
Kep
As a final note from me on the subject, for now, why not give the highest level alchemists what they seek. The philosopher's stone. Skipping the Full metal references it is what alchemists have historically been after. |
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NaelwynPosts: 209 Location: Hans Mina Magus Age: 118 years old Clan: OTAKU2 | Message #37535 Posted: Oct 6, 2009, 2:50 am |
Ah. See, that sounds nice, but what exactly would it do? They already have iron -> gold, which is basically one of the be-all end alls of alchemy.
I'd suggest that you give alchemy clans a BRAND new golem type, constructable only out of transmuted resources and being restricted to the clan. And I would, of all the possibilities for it, reccommend giving them a Mercury golem (At Clan Level 20).
I like my own idea because it's completely unlike other golems and is VERY powerful offensively and VERY weak defensively.
Carrying Capacity: As Gem
Innate Strength: 30
Innate Speed: 30
Special Abilities: As Admantine (Deflection, It's a liquid, attacks go right through), CANNOT BE ARMOURED (It's a Liquid.)
Innate Damage:
Impact: 1
Slash: 10
Pierce: 3
Fire: 5 (Acidity/Toxicity)
Frost: 1
Sonic: 1
Innate Resistance:
Impact: 10
Slash: 10
Pierce: 20
Fire: 30
Frost: 30
Sonic: 30
HP: As Gem.
ECL: Equivalent to Admantine |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #37536 Posted: Oct 6, 2009, 3:05 am |
| How is that weak defensively? |
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HarryhausenPosts: 562 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 117 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #37537 Posted: Oct 6, 2009, 3:31 am |
| I believe he's referring to the fact that it cannot be armored :) still a pretty decent golem. and the best defense is a good offense. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #37539 Posted: Oct 6, 2009, 3:57 am |
| Honestly... with natural soak like that, it could probably survive anything short of a mortar or a big metal golem with a maulhammer without any issue whatsoever. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 126 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #37545 Posted: Oct 6, 2009, 4:48 am |
My point was that it had higher resists than the adamant, and it is faster than a glass or gem golem. I would think that instead of high resists it would have a "dodge" mechanic similar to blocking with shields. At least code wise, I think it would work similarly... Increase the chance that an attack will miss but it if hits does serious damage. I mean we aren't trying to recreate the terminator unit (or whatever) from terminator 2.
A'll be back. |
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NaelwynPosts: 209 Location: Hans Mina Magus Age: 118 years old Clan: OTAKU2 | Message #37550 Posted: Oct 6, 2009, 1:07 pm |
Those elemental soaks are high but the physicals are very low.
If an, even medium physical attack actually connects on it, it'll smoosh it. An iron golem will hit it for a base of 20ish damage.
An admantine could, quite easily, deal 100 with a blunt weapon and crit.
I think that's a VERY poor physical defense.
Keeping in mind this is a level 20 library reward. Melee and Ranged are going to get things that could very easily tear this to shreds. I think I should actually LOWER it's ECL (It's not that good compared to current, live things.) |
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