| Author | Thread: Magic: The Redheaded Step child | Page 1 | 2 |
| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37742 Posted: Oct 9, 2009, 7:37 am |
So magic only has spells up to level five. We need more spells, not only that but higher level stronger spells. No I do not have any spell ideas at the moment. I do however believe magic clans should get ability boosts similar to alchemy clans allowing for more than one spell to be cast on a golem or work shop at a time.
As for new spell idea, help me out Muelsfell. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #37752 Posted: Oct 9, 2009, 2:32 pm |
| Not sure how well the multiple spells thing will work... And alchemy can just change a golem one to one type. So maybe something to reduce the motivation cost of spells? Alchemy has research options they can choose to improve the conversion ratio down one level but only as far as 2:1. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #37754 Posted: Oct 9, 2009, 2:52 pm |
Piggy backing on lower mot cost maybe something to extent duration?
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Also the ref to alchemy was just that they can take... "Enhancing" abilities to improve what they can do already. Unless some bad ass super spells start coming out soon enhancing existing spell would be a nice option. |
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| NomNomNom Posts: 41
Location: Hans Mina
Magus Age: 139 years old
| Message #38377 Posted: Oct 24, 2009, 1:36 am |
maybe adding a way to use resources to fuel spells instead of (or as a portion of) a motivation cost)? maybe adding a way to extend a spell already cast (a queue or pay a motivation/resource cost to extend a spell instead of recasting it and "losing" motivation. Edible items exist now to boost motivation, maybe magic clans could create scrolls/wands/rings/etc. for later use.
I would be interested in powerful spells that require multiple magi to cast, or allowing magic clans to cast multiple spells at once, within reason. For example, I'm not sure casting Burning Aura twice for +20 fire would be fair, but casting Burning Aura and Sticky Fingers might not be overpowered. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #39347 Posted: Nov 18, 2009, 4:53 pm |
Just thought of this and this thread seems to still have the oh so appropriate title for this problem so here it goes.
Spell Clan clan guards suck. For Every other clan you can contribute the advancements of both of your primary and secondary paths to protecting your clan. Spell clans can't. Hell in Primary path spell clans cases we can only use our secondary path to help our clan guards out.
In short there needs to be some kind of system added to spell clans so clan guards can benefit from spells.
And as a side note if anyone suggests pulling the guards out of the depot, casting a spell on them and then putting them back I will kick you in the perineum over the internet because we both know that's dumb and improbable for a number for reasons. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39348 Posted: Nov 18, 2009, 5:04 pm |
Force Field, Field of Blades, and Wall of Shadows don't count as spells to help protect your guard?
Sounds like you want a button to cast spells on clan golems, yes? Or are you seriously suggesting that spell clans don't have enough defensive spells? |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39349 Posted: Nov 18, 2009, 5:29 pm |
Actually, it sounds like he's got something reasonable there, he's talking about clan guards, not personals, and I believe Wall of Shadows does nothing for those, and Field of Blades is already established as pretty fail.
I'm of the opinion that this isn't really all that much of a problem, provided that spell clans get cool mechanics-type stuff in the near future. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39352 Posted: Nov 18, 2009, 5:43 pm |
| But a spell clan isn't a defense clan - you lose specialties in exchange for having many types of spells. I'm with Sconi on this one - spell clans should be getting more unique effects and less duplicating what other clans can do. |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #39354 Posted: Nov 18, 2009, 7:36 pm |
A spell clan isn't a defense clan per say, it's the utility clan. Spell clans can enhance all parts of the games to one extent our another. And right now the only good defense spell in The stone wall which sucks since you can't really play "fair" if you cast up Wall after you attack some one, but the spells that last long enough to defend your workshop suck (good ones last at most 2 hours), or cost 25 motivation.
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #39360 Posted: Nov 18, 2009, 8:28 pm |
Well, while it can't be used to help the shadow, Force Field is quite a nice defensive spell with a decent duration and low cost.
The likes of fields of blades though, I would say should either be way cheaper or be a bit more powerful. Perhaps both even. |
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| Kaelas Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old
Real Name: Barry
| Message #39398 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 7:01 am |
I think the point was lost.
Sounds like you want a button to cast spells on clan golems, yes?
If I'm not mistaken, the answer to this is 'yes' and I'd have to agree that such would be fair. In addition to casting a spell on shadows, I'd also like to be able to reload ranged weapons without having recall, give, donate and resend shadows as well... |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #39400 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 8:37 am |
Man oh man do I hate the 12 hour shifts.
As Kaelas stated for me, yes I want a button that lets me cast golem spells on clan golems in the depot without having to remove them from the depot and using clan generated motivation to cast. I was going to sit down and try to figure a sensible formula out for clan generated motivation but I had to actually work today so maybe tomorrow.
And as a side note, not to get off topic, reload options for clan golems would be nice along with them not losing all their gear when whoever equip them leaves clan. I am pretty sure there is a thread about this somewhere already... |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #39407 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 2:11 pm |
| Semaj said:
I was going to sit down and try to figure a sensible formula out for clan generated motivation but I had to actually work today so maybe tomorrow.
Or, why not just use the motivation of whichever clan officer casts it? That seems reasonable enough to me. |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #39423 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 4:46 pm |
hmm taking that idea a step further if you had a clan moti pool, then the SM or an arch person could also have an option to 'select all' and apply a single spell to all the clan guards simultaneously, as long as the moti was available.
Maybe moti could be donated like any other resource to fill that pool. I think though there would have to be a cap on the amount stored, based on one of the building levels.
This option could even be available to non spell clans, but obviously limited to the spells known by the arch person/SM doing the casting.
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39425 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 5:00 pm |
Cast a spell on every golem in the depot? *laughs maniacally*
Clearly your clan has a very, VERY small depot if you think that's remotely plausible. We have 112 golems. |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #39429 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 5:28 pm |
Good point :)
Maybe rather than all golems in the depot, all guards assigned to active members (who haven't opted out).
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #39435 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 5:51 pm |
| Rednaxela said:
Or, why not just use the motivation of whichever clan officer casts it? That seems reasonable enough to me.
Because no one in any sizable clan has enough motivation to cast on every golem in the depot. Well they couldn't do that and gain any exp or do anything else productive. Plus it should be a feature of spell clans to be able to use spells on guards. Other than production costs do you put motivation into your clan guards? No, you just make the weapons/armor/items equip and forget.
@masterslug: I am not apposed to the motivation donating idea but I believe to make it fair there would need to be exp compensation much like transmuting in a alchemy clan. If not it is just lost motivation and no one would donate.
@Yami: WTF? I understand having back ups but good god! That's enough to cover half the people in the game or every member in your clan 4 times, almost.
@masterslug... again: Yes just the ones guarding places that matter. That would be the useful button.
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Maybe even instead of a motivation system some kind of point system can be used and the spells could be permanent instead of being maintained. Clan has XXX points it costs XX points to keep this spell on this clan guard. Points would be upgraded with the... something... armory, great hall, depot some combination of buildings...
Would it be unreasonable for a spell clan to have a clan spell source for use on there guards? |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39438 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 5:59 pm |
We store attack golems that people can borrow for PvP or experimenting. We had a clay guard for every member and now we have those as backups for when people are awaiting addy guards.
I don't see why it should be a spell-clan feature. You don't have to be in a defense clan to put personal armour on the guards, or be in a meelee clan to put tiger claws on them. It's just a shortcut for borrowing the golem, spelling it, and putting it back. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #39443 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 6:36 pm |
But like I stated at the second beginning of this topic Every other clan you can contribute the advancements of both of your primary and secondary paths to protecting your clan.
Anyone can donated personal items and everyone does. Not everyone can remove a golem from the depot to cast on it. Even if they could it would be a cluster f***. Also nobody else has to use up motivation for what there clan can do, save for alchemy and when it comes to clan guards its a set number of motivation points with a exp compensation.
You are suggesting that in order for a magic clan to use magic to protect themselves at the clan level there should be a group of people spending there motivation to do so, not gaining anything in return and unable to play the game do to the lack of motivation from preforming this duty.
Hell, give us another building. A magic source building. Each level will give you XX amount of points to use toward permanent spells on clan golems. Each spell costs XX amount of points to be maintained. The building would be the compensation needed in place of the materials other clans use to make the items they put on clan guards.
That solution took me a bit to rationalize but seems like the best approach to me. It would for all intensive purposes make spells into items to be equipped onto only clan golems. They wouldn't really be items but... well I hope you get what I am saying. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39446 Posted: Nov 19, 2009, 7:11 pm |
In order for a magic clan to do ANYTHING they have to spend motivation. It's the trade-off for being a spell clan.
Also, you do realize that a guard doesn't have to have special equipment to fulfill its basic purpose - guarding.
"Anyone can donate personal items" - yeah, and as it stands, anyone can donate moti towards casting a spell on a golem, in exactly the same way they'd equip an item to it.
There was talk some time ago about an item that would let you cast a spell onto it; maybe if there was a clan item that let you cast a permanent spell into it, maybe call it a runestone, you could then equip that to the golems in the depot. That way if it's dropped, much like how a defense clan item is dropped, it stops working. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #39494 Posted: Nov 20, 2009, 5:19 am |
I still don't think I am getting the point across. Donating items is not at all the same as donating motivation. I can hammer out items all day long and still play the game. Clans can make items all day long for their guards. They cost resources yes but then it is done. Item made, equip and forgotten. Even then not everyone can touch the clan guards.
And sure you don't need spells to for your clan guard to guard but you do if you want it to guard well. What happens when clan wars start up someday? We have to keep casting spells on our golems and the clan guards? Everyone else just needs wait for the spells to run out and attack.
I guess the bottom line is Yami we view this in different ways, and there is nothing wrong about that. I see not being able to utilize spells on clan golems in a reasonable fashion as a problem, you don't. I would just really like to see my clan golems benefit from everything my clan has to offer while still allowing everyone in my clan to play the game.
Ideas to ponder before I change the subject a bit, "rune" or "spell" stones to equip spells. Not a bad idea. My spell source building idea I also like. Separate motivation and spell point pools, this would also effect alchemy clans. Enchanting items would be nice too. These are all just ideas for the next thing I am going to say.
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Now to kick thinks up a notch, I don't think the spells are powerful enough to merit motivation as the cost at all. Cannons, spiked chains all do a better job at killing stuff along with armor and items and none of those cost motivation. I sit here having to blow motivation before every hunt equal to 25 to 45 exp. They all just hunt. I have times of weakness when my spells aren't cast and am not stronger then them when I have cast a spell.
Lets argue about this now for a change of pace. Also feel free to continue the arguments about just the clan guards. Honestly this has been a good argument. :) |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #39516 Posted: Nov 20, 2009, 5:09 pm |
How about making it possible for say... SMs and Archdukes to draw weapons and ammo straight from the armory to golems in the depot? If they could also draw from their personal storage it would save a bit of time kitting guards.
Caveat being that any shadows actively guarding a workshop would have to be recalled to the depot, therefore treating the depot like the worktable. Then Kep could implement those runestone items that he was meaning to. Create a runestone object for each spell (i don't think there are that many, and it should be fairly easy to copy once the creators have a template).
You use motivation and resources (glass?) at your spellbook page to create the runestone which then sits in your storage like any item. You ought to be able to send them through the transfer office, then the clan can help the SM/Archduke keep protective spells on the shadows. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #39518 Posted: Nov 20, 2009, 5:26 pm |
Honestly, I don't see the need for this. When you picked spells, you knew they were going to be limitedly useful, and cost motivation to activate. Personally, I'm very happy with how spells are working related to my clan. What we need, in my mind, are higher level spells that are more capable, Magic should get, at level 10 or so, a spell that's as potent as a Mortar Cannon or an ISE, precisely because it's temporary and requires a significant outlay of resources at each use, not a one-time thing.
The only problem is that, precisely because magic is so different, it's much harder for spells to be made, so high-end magic doesn't yet exist. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #39530 Posted: Nov 20, 2009, 6:26 pm |
When you pick anything you know it is going to be limited useful. And yes I knew of the motivation costs but this right now is more for arguments sake and less of complaining.
The bigger known problem when it came to magic is we knew the spell system was incomplete. We didn't know that it would be under powered at cost of motivation to many other things for so long though.
Anyone who uses spells can tell you there are only about 5 or 6 spells that are true'll useful to take. Wall of Stone, flying Anvil, elemental fury are stamps in my book. But a lot of the spells are just looked at and passed over. I totally agree that we need some spells that can really hit as hard as some of the weapons out there. We also need enough spells that work together with other spells and other clan specialties that one would have to sit down and think "What do I want my clan to specialize in?"
This brings up my help thread again. I sit in a back shop on a military base for 8 to 12 hours a day. If there isn't an airplane I am working on chances are I have nothing to do. If I could be given a staring point as far as coding goes I would put some work into this site for free. All I want is to make the place I play better, thus right now threads like is.
Anyone else got anything? We are currently arguing spell items, motivation, better spells and the depot issues everyone knows about.
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #39531 Posted: Nov 20, 2009, 6:49 pm |
| Just a minor point but, you say there are only about 5 or 6 spells that are true'll useful to take, that's the same for other paths too. I'm not talking our primary as every one gets annoyed with us when we do :), but our secondry - Mellee we have three spare slots and nothing worth spending them on. I'm sure other paths have the same problem. Even our Primary a lot of releases are just upgrades of the same things we already have (thank heavens for the forget button!!). I think it's too much to expect every spell you get to be equally useful, once the higher level spells come out I'm sure you'll be doing the same as us a forgetting all your less useful spells. |
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