| Author | Thread: Moving and Fighting |
XorphitusPosts: 182 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: HAVOC | Message #40270 Posted: Dec 11, 2009, 12:31 pm |
Right now it occurs to me that there is no difference made if a golem or monster did move the same combat round or not. This massively favors ranged weapon users since they can move AND fire in the same round. So they can keep their distance while still being able to uphold their fire.
Since moving needs time and firing ranged weapons while moving or moving and then fighting in close combat needs more skill than just standing still and concentrating on either aiming or firing or doing melee combat, I would suggest a penalty for moving in the same round, be it closer to the opponent or moving away from it.
Ranged weapons need to be aimed anew after moving or the aiming is way harder while moving yourself, same with close combat since you have to move AND fight.
So a penalty in accuracy would only be fair IMHO. |
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| Semaj Posts: 273
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Semaj Website: Click HereEmail: thegreatsemaj@hotmail.com | Message #40276 Posted: Dec 11, 2009, 7:05 pm |
| Something like that could level the playing field between melee and ranged at lest a bit. I think it would be worth a look at. Maybe even incorporate the terrain into the penalty. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40281 Posted: Dec 11, 2009, 9:59 pm |
| I'm thinking that's pretty unreasonable actually, considering the lack of brains the golems display, and the lack of control magi have over their golems in combat. It's not all that bad an idea though, if the combat system gets completely overhauled. |
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NaelwynPosts: 209 Location: Hans Mina Magus Age: 111 years old Clan: OTAKU2 | Message #40282 Posted: Dec 11, 2009, 10:46 pm |
| Movement DOES burn energy. How much it takes, I don't think anyone has locked down, but your golem running around does seem to reduce the energy it has available. |
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XorphitusPosts: 182 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: HAVOC | Message #40293 Posted: Dec 12, 2009, 2:43 am |
Well, energy usally is not the main problem though. It seems to me moving one round is the equivalent of one single attack. So really a minor influence. And you seem to get extra attacks in the first round of attacks. It seems you get more first combat round attacks when you meet the other in a later combat round. My golem usally hits more when it meets the other in combat round 4+ than in combat round 2 for example. This is really odd as well.
As for the argument that golems are stupid (or rather super-smart outwitting any Magus blatantly if they calculate fire against a moving target while moving themselves), you should consider why artillery is fixed to the ground and standing still to achieve better results? Since it can aim better than, while moving yourself (and aiming at a moving target) is way harder. It is just odd terrain gives aiming penalties but moving does not.
Since ranged attacks are favoured a lot by the current combat system I would like a general overhaul to even it out, and indeed, movement would be a major factor then. You could interpret "hangback" as your command to the golem to try to keep perfect firing distance all the time and "normal" as command to concentrate on firing and preparing for close combat once the opponent is getting to close. |
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NaelwynPosts: 209 Location: Hans Mina Magus Age: 111 years old Clan: OTAKU2 | Message #40295 Posted: Dec 12, 2009, 3:07 am |
Considering the fact that combat distance is usually within 100ft, I can reasonably believe that a strong golem could use a shoulder-mounted weapon without reasonable difficulty aiming while moving.
However, by exploration of current mechanics, what seems to be happening is more like:
Golems move.
(In Range?)
Attack.
Though I do agree, in terms of power balance it seems:
Ranged > Melee = Item > Defense > Alchemy > Spell |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #40296 Posted: Dec 12, 2009, 3:14 am |
| That's fairly bold statement. Range is Very powerful yes, but Item is better the Melee, defense is useful but but I can't comment on that one. Alchemy is Very useful, for everybody else, and spell is getting very nice particularly with those new spells. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40297 Posted: Dec 12, 2009, 3:17 am |
Really Naelwyn? I'd weight spell rather higher than alchemy, and item rather higher than ranged or melee. I'd agree with you that ranged>melee while range can stay away, but that is often non-viable.
I'd probably say Item>Ranged/Melee/Spell>Alchemy, although I'll freely admit that if Ranged golems were capable of using fists in the event of the enemy closing, they'd be in front, although still probably behind item.
Defense I've got no idea where it lives, but certainly above alchemy. The problem I have there is that I'm not sure on the percentage reductions that the high-end items give, but they can safely be assumed to minimize the damage from any weapon with ease, and low weight. The only thing I can think of that it might not min is a copper or bronze with matching elemental chain and personal spell, which can result in 40 elemental damage. |
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| Vardos Posts: 146
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 120 years old
| Message #40299 Posted: Dec 12, 2009, 3:54 am |
In the morning for everyone I will hit a fair sized opponent a few times and then post it here. I will include both the times I manage to end the fight before the opponent closes and when I get beat to a pulp because my golem is too stupid to back up.
Keep in mind the golem I am using will be fully strength boosted.
Vardos Korinth
The Dark Putz |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #40366 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 5:49 pm |
I think I'm with Sconibulus in general, Items seem pretty nice. Defense might be cool, but as with him I don't know what it does. Melee has some nice features, but it looks like right now you can buy a weapon that in general is as good as the most useful we can build for 70 tickets. Am I a little bitter? Maybe. Am I tempted to get one? Kinda. Course if you can't afford the tickets and want access to similar stuff, I would highly recommend joining a melee clan.
I would love to see something other than my clan's specialty being offered in that manner though, maybe a nice ISE type item, or perhaps some sort of shield or steam generator. |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40368 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 6:05 pm |
I'm afraid I have to side with Laidan and Sconi. Before Gem golems existed, I might have said ranged was very slightly overpowered, but since the advent of gem golems and hangback having a failure chance, ranged golems are awfully easy to catch up to really.
I'd rank the power of various clan types more like Item>Spell>Melee=Ranged=Defense>Alchemy
laidan said:
I would love to see something other than my clan's specialty being offered in that manner though, maybe a nice ISE type item, or perhaps some sort of shield or steam generator. Very much agreed!Last Edited: Dec 13, 2009, 6:06 pm |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #40369 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 6:14 pm |
| Melee needs a buff (I saw the new premium weapon and cried for you a bit.) But I'll leave those Idea's to melees clan them selves. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40373 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 6:28 pm |
Yeah, I'm with Laidan about the new weapon, it's powerful enough that there's not much reason to join a melee clan at the moment. The older weapons didn't matter much, because while they were better than the very low level stuff, they weren't anywhere near where everyone was.
Comparing the stats on the blade against the most comparable melee weapons, the level 7 bronze dagger, and level 10 Ruby Twinblade.
Winter Slayblade:
Slice & Puncture: 7, Cold: 10, Weight: 10 lbs, Precision: 16%, Speed: 18, 1 Slot
Bronze Dagger:
Slice: 5, Cold: 6, Weight: 10 lbs, Precision: 10%, Speed 18, 1 slot.
Ruby Twinblade:
Slice & Puncture: 7, Weight: 10 lbs, Precision: 12%, Speed 18, 1 slot.
If you notice, the new weapon is either equivilent or superior in every category, and that's just not reasonable. I understand making the weapon powerful enough that people might want it, but outclassing clans which require billions of resources outlay... |
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| PhatsMahoney Posts: 558
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 109 years old
| Message #40380 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 6:49 pm |
| Yeah, kind of lame. Not to say I'm not glad I don't have mine, and only people willing to spend 70 premium tickets will be able to have one, but it would be nice to see a new weapon introduced to us that is better than the premium weapon. If only by a little. |
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XorphitusPosts: 182 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: HAVOC | Message #40386 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 7:51 pm |
I'd like to point out to differ combat powers and prowness of the different clan specs regarding (a) monster combat and (b) PvP.
Against monsters ranged rule them all. Once they get the big guns, like mortar cannon or repeater dart tube, and mount it on a big robust golem, they should be able to kill each and every monster easily. Melee needs to get the chance to close in, which in case of close combat monsters includes suffering damage themselves or in case of dragon suffering various rounds of damage.
So regarding monster combat ranged has obvious advantages.
As for PvP things even out, sure. But only due to the gem golems having the speed of glass golems and being quite robust. Since you can replace all body parts apart from the chest, you can even keep repair costs reasonbly low. And exps investments into strength make gem golems lethal.
Still, without gem golems ranged would still have an edge against melee.
I do not know how the two extreme tweaks (gem golems and winterslay blade) should be included in a general discussion, since they have such a huge impact but are not too common... yet... |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40387 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 8:17 pm |
| Xorphitus said:
Against monsters ranged rule them all. Once they get the big guns, like mortar cannon or repeater dart tube, and mount it on a big robust golem, they should be able to kill each and every monster easily. Not really. For example, against Akhen, ranged basically fails just as hard as melee does really. I would say though, that now with this new premie weapon, I'd rate melee as the worst, same as alchemy, unfortunately.
Xorphitus said:
I do not know how the two extreme tweaks (gem golems and winterslay blade) should be included in a general discussion, since they have such a huge impact but are not too common... yet... Well, the winter slayblade is quite new indeed, but gem golems not common? I'm not sure what you're seeting, but gem golems are the ONLY PvP attackers I really see ever used anymore. They're extremely common.
My overall opinion of the current issues under discusion, is that ranged doesn't need any debuffs, but melee really needs to be buffed up (and alchemy could do with some new capabilities).Last Edited: Dec 13, 2009, 8:28 pm |
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AtroposPosts: 94 Location: Daylsfeld Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #40390 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 8:37 pm |
Stuff for alchemy is in the works. (It would actually be incredibly, ridiculously overpowered if we made it live now.) (Addendum: I don't think any live clans are actually high enough to make use of it either though.)
I'm not the person working on ranged stuff, but have any melee clans hit level 15 library yet? To my understanding there's a very good reward waiting for them.
Defense is still pretty low on the balance scale. Our three possibilities for defense-getting better are: A) Ranged-Blocking shields, B) Minimum damage reduction, C) Spell and Damage reflection.
Spells are still a work in progress as I continue to campaign for more spell effects. (Working on magic missiles really.)
As for item, they still have stuff ready all the way up to level 20. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #40395 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 9:26 pm |
| My belief is we are the highest melee clan and no, we're working on 14 now. Speaking of which, is there anything there when we get there? Did ranged ever get their 13? It's going to take a ridiculously long time to get to 15 at the current rate, but we look forward to it. |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40396 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 9:33 pm |
| laidan said:
Did ranged ever get their 13? Nope, library 13 gave nothing for ranged. |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 114 years old
| Message #40401 Posted: Dec 13, 2009, 9:54 pm |
| Spell is about too get Level 11 so I'll say if there is anything hidden. (Probably not) |
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