| Author | Thread: Gameplay Balance Poll #1: Relative Clan Effectiveness |
AtroposPosts: 94 Location: Daylsfeld Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #40467 Posted: Dec 15, 2009, 7:02 pm |
The first of a couple of polls to get an idea of what the community thinks of different issues so that we can work towards fixing them better.
If you wish to participate:
Please state, on a scale of 1-10, 1 being exceedingly poor at, 10 being exceedingly overpowered for, each clan specialization (Item, Melee, Ranged, Defense, Spell, Alchemy) in the following categories.
PvP Offense
PvP Defense
PvE Effectiveness (Allows for easy exp gathering.)
PvE Economical (Allows for greater loot haul.)
PvE Damage Mitigation (Allows a golem to walk away unscathed.)
It is likely this data will allow us to correct balance a bit. Please answer the way you honestly feel. If you do not wish to do this in the forums, you may also PM your opinion to me where it will be kept private. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40470 Posted: Dec 15, 2009, 7:40 pm |
Ranged Melee Item Spell Alchemy Defense
PvP Offense 3 6 9 7 2 5
PvP Defense 6 5 7 10/6 2 7
PvE Effectiveness 6 7 7 8 5 6
PvE Economical 8 4 7 10 3 7
PvE Damage Mitigation 7 4 4 9 2 8
This totals 26 for melee, 30 ranged, 34 item, 44/40 spell, 14 alchemy, 32 defense.
Spell, while being the biggest, is mostly mitigated by large motivation costs and/or short durations. Also, the rating of the spell clan on defense depends on their willingness to use wall of stone. (which, along with forest rat swarm, are among the most annoying and unbalanced spells in the game)
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40471 Posted: Dec 15, 2009, 8:09 pm |
Ranged Melee Item Spell Alchemy Defense
PvP Offense 3 7 8 7 1 4
PvP Defense 7 5 7 6 2 7
PvE Effectiveness 6 6 6 4 4 4
PvE Economical 6 4 7 5 4 8
PvE Damage Mitigation 8 4 4 9 2 8
Totaling to:
Item: 32
Spell: 31
Defense: 31
Ranged: 30
Melee: 28
Alchemy: 13
One note is I rate magic much lower than Sconi in "PvE Effectiveness", because I think the important thing for "easy exp gathering" is is the exp/moti ratio, and magic is bad for that. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40476 Posted: Dec 15, 2009, 10:10 pm |
| That's the reason it's not a 10 : () ), a spell like the blast, if it works the way I think it does, is 5 motivation and lets you spam a 1 second target for an easy 10 xp without being remotely threatened. |
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XorphitusPosts: 182 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: HAVOC | Message #40479 Posted: Dec 15, 2009, 11:21 pm |
This poll is exceedingly biased. It does not take into account Magus level and the related total motivation score possible and the motivation regeneration rate as well as the clan great hall and library level.
So I can only score according to my personal situation (Magus lvl 16, clan lvl 6, Library lvl 7) and using hearsay about said other clans.
Additionally assuming everyone has the economical power to aquire all personal items and golems including gem golems, tiger claws and the winter slayblade (hell, the blade twisted my score badly).
Ranged Melee Item Spell Alchemy Defense
PvP Offense 8 6 8 6 4 4
PvP Defense 7 3 6 9 4 10
PvE Effectiveness 6 6 6 6 4 6
PvE Economical 9 3 6 10 3 7
PvE Damage Mitigation 7 4 4 9 2 8
Overall score: 37 22 30 40 17 35
No rest for the wicked. The winter slayblade undermined the whole melee section and devalued it. And everyone can use gem golems for nasty PvP. This as explanation why melee scores so badly since it lost most of its edge. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #40480 Posted: Dec 15, 2009, 11:48 pm |
I have to agree that this poll needs some tweaking. What level of Clan Library are we comparing? A level 10 Library in almost any specialty will trump a level 4 one...
I'm not including differences in Magus level as that is a constant no matter what Clan you are in and is rather difficult to determine the direct impact a higher level has. |
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AtroposPosts: 94 Location: Daylsfeld Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #40482 Posted: Dec 16, 2009, 4:24 am |
Ah.
If you're willing to take the time to think of it, I'd prefer a rating of an overall comparison over 3 library levels, say 5, 10, and 15.
If you don't have time, then the values I'm most interested in are: 10, followed by 15, followed by 5.
I'm noting immediately that people are thinking alchemy is severely underpowered in combat. There is in fact a very simple thing we can make live that causes alchemy to become the most powerful clan in the game. It actually has a small bit of this potential even now, if the mechanics of use of it is understood and implemented properly. I shall say no more, lest I give it away. |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #40483 Posted: Dec 16, 2009, 4:38 am |
I (think) know what your getting at Atropos, but right not Alchemy clans are having a hard time getting members and resources, and are mostly used by other clans as resource factories. While I don't think this is a bad thing it could be away before anyone get to the levels to make super powerful golems using Alchemy.
As for spell clans
Level 5 we get Elemental fury, and we have anvil soooo.
PvP Offense 8 (Elemental fury is pro)
PvP Defense 7 (Wall of stone is very useful, but has it's limitations)
PvE Effectiveness 8( it can be a huge benefit, but in some places spell barely helpful.)
PvE Economical 4 (Spells cost Moti)
PvE Damage Mitigation 3( Force field has limited applications)
Level 10, (Assuming the new spells are as epic as they appear.)
PvP Offense 9 (with a long list of spells you can tailor your golems to hunt down anything. though it can take some testing and luck.)
PvP Defense 7 (Stone wall)
PvE Effectiveness 7 (more toys = more fun, but not a huge benefit)
PvE Economical 4 (Spells still cost Moti)
PvE Damage Mitigation 4.5(Prismatic field = Dragon hunting)Last Edited: Dec 16, 2009, 4:08 pm |
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| BadHorse Posts: 26
Location: Agoia Talia
Magus Age: 115 years old
Real Name: Jay
| Message #40484 Posted: Dec 16, 2009, 4:56 am |
| And, you know, there's me. Still recruiting BTW. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #40492 Posted: Dec 16, 2009, 3:29 pm |
It's going to be a bit difficult to rate clans based on level 15 library, since as far as I know OTAKU is the only one to be that high so far, with the next closest being 13. But perhaps I am wrong.
I would say, at around level 10 library,
Ranged Melee Item Spell Alchemy Defense
PvP Offense 5 5 8 7 3 4
PvP Defense 7 5 7 6 2 7
PvE Effectiveness 7 7 7 4 4 4
PvE Economical 7 4 7 5 4 8
PvE Damage Mitigation 8 4 4 8 2 8
Totals Ranged 34, melee 25, items 33, spells 30, alchemy 15, 31 defense.
I am with Sconi on spells mostly, especially about wall of stone and rat swarm. It also seems to me that against a well armored defender the only difference most weapons (ranged or melee) are going to make is in speed either direction, and against an unarmored defender most weapons for both will splat the defender. The economical and damage mitigation numbers seem fairly related to me, as if you're going to be able to take less damage due to your clan stuff, you can wear less of the heavy standard armor. Finally there are some combinations of clan types which seem like they could swing the numbers around a bit, but they're harder to judge. Last Edited: Dec 16, 2009, 3:31 pm |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #40494 Posted: Dec 16, 2009, 4:04 pm |
Rat swamp isn't a spell clan spell (aka any one can have it), and as for forest? Are your referring to Druidic defender?
Is Stone wall powerful? Yes very, but I don't think any one has abused it very much. Though the possibility more then exists. If it becomes a problem maybe a new line of code could be written that reduces it's duration if you PvP wile it's on (Each time you attack it it reduces it's Duration by 50% like current attack do.)Last Edited: Dec 16, 2009, 4:10 pm |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40496 Posted: Dec 16, 2009, 8:55 pm |
| The timed defensive spells are still bugged, by the way, as far as I know. I won't repeat how for the sake of people who might be using them still, but they're incredibly easy to defeat if you know the glitch. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #40573 Posted: Dec 20, 2009, 7:16 pm |
I can't vouch for Level 15 Libraries, all information here is taken from the Library wiki or the Alchemy entry in the Forums. I am unable to personally run comparisons so the values are purely arbitrary and I cannot produce empirical evidence for them.
Assumptions:
This is based on having ONLY the Primary. No factoring for Secondaries has been allowed. Additionally, NO personal spells are being factored separately for offensive/defensive purposes, but they can have significant impact to these numbers. Assumptions are made based on Spell design, overlooking the mentioned glitches. PvP rankings make the assumption that the defending party has a full level 15 barricade in place prior to the assault.
Measures on Economy were made based on presumed materiel cost as well as motivation against the local area, as other areas are more dependent on Stables than anything else.
Information gaps:
Are double transmutations of golems possible? For example, Clay to Flesh, then Flesh to Iron.
Incomplete entries in many Item Clan items listed, assumed as to efficacy.
Incomplete listings of Spell and effects for Spell Clans. Information is evolving with newer spells.
Based on the items available at Level 5 library to include items from lower levels:
Ranged: Screaming Mask, Crystal Focus, Trebuchet
Melee: Reinforced Nunchaku
Item: Imp. Icestone, Sunshade, Six-demon bag, Crowbar, Brass-ringed Flametongue
Spell: Elemental Fury, Flying Anvil, Wall of Stone, Field of Blades
Alchemy: Iron into anything lower...
Defense: Bronze Pike, Rein. Leather, Imp. Iron Scales, Sapphire Shield
Clanless: Default items only.
R/M/I/S/A/D/C
PvP Offense 7/5/8/9/5/5/5
(Item assumes assault of suicide golems equipped with 6DB)
PvP Defense 7/5/8/7/4/7/4
PvE Effectiveness 8/7/6/8/6/7/5
PvE Economical 7/6/6/7/8/6/5
PvE Damage Mitigation 8/6/5/8/5/7/5
L5 Totals:
Ranged 37, Melee 29, Items 33, Spells 39, Alchemy 28, Defense 32, Clanless 24
Spells and Ranged are the clear winners here, followed by Items and Defense, with Alchemy and Melee not too far behind, but not significant advantages above Clanless Magi.
Based on the items available at Level 10 library:
Ranged: Quake Boots, Repeater Dart Tube, Fine Archery Gloves
Melee: Flanged Zweihander, Ruby Twinblade
Item: Shining Light Gem, Umbrella, Sapphire Eyes, Starlight Goggles, 8DB, Brass-gear Crowbar
Spell: Prismatic Veil, more spells in development
Alchemy: Iron into exotics, barring Gem golems (Level 7 effective)
Defense: Giant-Bone Shield, Half-wall Shield, Adamantine Banding, Heavy Bone Mail, P's Portable Puffer
Clanless: No change
R/M/I/S/A/D/C
PvP Offense 8/6/8/5/6/7/4
(Item assumes assault of suicide golems equipped with 8DB)
PvP Defense 8/6/8/5/5/8/3
PvE Effectiveness 8/7/8/6/6/7/4
PvE Economical 8/6/8/6/7/8/4
PvE Damage Mitigation 8/6/8/6/5/8/5
L10 Totals:
Ranged 40, Melee 31, Items 40, Spells 28, Alchemy 29, Defense 38, Clanless 20
Ranged, Items, and Defense are leaders, with Melee, Spells and Alchemy starting to really lose ground. Spells still lack many high level spells, but more are coming out, so their comparative ranking only can go up. Alchemy is effectively limited to level 7 regardless unless they get unique golems like Silver and Gold, but the ability to make the equivalent of level 10 Flesh golems with 120 Strength (!!!) shouldn't be overlooked. Clanless get left mostly in the dust here, and things will only get worse as more Clans reach Level 15.
Remember, this is based on level 10 items and below ONLY. From what I can tell based on library progress up through at least level 12, things may be markedly different at level 15.
edits: added Clanless, Spell level 10, Portable Puffer for Defense level 10Last Edited: Dec 23, 2009, 2:14 am |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40574 Posted: Dec 20, 2009, 7:45 pm |
| Just to quickly note, as someone in a ranged clan, I find "Screaming Mask, Crystal Focus, Trebuchet", the ones you cite for up to level 5, not very good really. The mask is a fairly slowish and low-range weapon, and it's ammo uses glass which is a pain. Also, item clans have more powerful ranged weapons than a level 5 ranged clan, by level 3, so I'm not sure how you could rate level 5 ranged better than level 5 item. Crystal Focus takes way too many slots to be very useful (high level eyes not from an item clan use up too many head slots as-is). Then the trebuchet... is heavy and has a marginal impact at best. |
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AtroposPosts: 94 Location: Daylsfeld Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #40577 Posted: Dec 20, 2009, 10:22 pm |
I see no need for people to fear burning slots without knowing what something will do, ergo:
Q&A time I suppose:
Prismatic Wall:
Cost: 8 Mot
Duration: 6 Hours
Effect: Adds +15 resistance to heat, cold, and sonic attacks.
Multiple Transmutations:
You can transmute a golem as much as you want.
If you, say, wish to go from:
Flesh->Iron->Stone->Flesh->Iron, you can.
(Though it'll be hell on your motivation.)
The exception to this rule is if there is nothing that you can transmute to. (Either you lack the slot purchase or the transmute does not exist.)
Make use of these how you will. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #40580 Posted: Dec 20, 2009, 11:29 pm |
My methodology took the 'high-level' available items at each of the levels. I'm not arguing they are the best choices for any Clan to make, just that's what the wiki shows as the most 'advanced' choices at that level.
I agree that most of the items at level 5 aren't the best, and individual items across Clans may have higher individual stats, but there are mitigating factors. Specifically, while Flametongues do higher exotic damage than the Screaming Mask, it is easier to armor against heat than sonic.
At level 5, even the Item Clans use the regular eyes, they don't gain Amethyst eyes until level 6, so the to-hit advantage of the focus in a non-wood golem can be significant.
Again, this was my personal assessment though, so feel free to disagree. :)
Although I just realized I should have included Clanless Magi to offer more of a baseline. I'll go back and add that. |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40587 Posted: Dec 21, 2009, 3:13 am |
| Halftea said:
Specifically, while Flametongues do higher exotic damage than the Screaming Mask, it is easier to armor against heat than sonic. My argument would be, that at least for offensive purposes, the fact that heat is easier to armor against makes relatively little difference, since most unsuspecting guards don't exactly load a bunch of copper banding.
Halftea said:
At level 5, even the Item Clans use the regular eyes, they don't gain Amethyst eyes until level 6, so the to-hit advantage of the focus in a non-wood golem can be significant. I'd call it impractical, except for very small niche uses, because the combination of the etched crystal focus and half-decent personal eyes will leave no real room for armor on the head. Against all but the tiniest level things, no sane magi would have a golem with an unarmored head. Everyone I've talked to would rather either use a wood golem or live with the accuracy hurt in forests. Of course, there could be people making good use of it that I don't know of.
Just my little thoughts on those two points.Last Edited: Dec 21, 2009, 3:19 am |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #40648 Posted: Dec 23, 2009, 1:48 am |
| Rednaxela said:
I'd call it impractical, except for very small niche uses, because the combination of the etched crystal focus and half-decent personal eyes will leave no real room for armor on the head. Against all but the tiniest level things, no sane magi would have a golem with an unarmored head. Everyone I've talked to would rather either use a wood golem or live with the accuracy hurt in forests. Of course, there could be people making good use of it that I don't know of.
I figure, level 5 head = 6 slots. 3 for Diamond eyes, 2 for the Focus and 1 for hvy plate. That should be enough for most of the creatures in the game. Obviously the high end creature, especially the dragons, need more, but I used to use only a single light plate and emerald eyes against the Giant prior to decent Clan armour, so based that part of it on my experiences. But not being Ranged, maybe my view is likely different.
Admittedly, I think the Focus has more value once you add the higher level weapons available above Library level 10 |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #40665 Posted: Dec 23, 2009, 4:36 am |
| It's also heavy enough I've only found it practical on clay golems. |
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| Rednaxela Posts: 177
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 119 years old
| Message #40678 Posted: Dec 23, 2009, 7:59 am |
| And needing to use heavy plate at the same time is heavy too. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #40681 Posted: Dec 23, 2009, 12:35 pm |
I don't disagree. But since no parameters for golem type or level or spare carrying capacity were laid out for the PvE section I went on the assumption people have access to every type and level of golem. Either thru personal research or Clanmates.
Many PvE trips are also dependent on what the persons goal is - loot, experience, or a combination. The same can be said for PvP I suppose - guard destruction, skirmish/personal score or XP. Different goals are favored by different layouts. Alot of thing may also depend on a Magi's workshop location.
I mentally tried to compromise on the middle ground among all of these. As stated, they are personal opinions, since I can't actually test them and compare damage, loot and repair cost results. There are too many variables to account for for a truly impartial assessment, many of them dependent on the individual Magi. |
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