| Author | Thread: All Clan PVP Summit | Page 1 | 2 | 3 |
CyrricPosts: 64 Location: Agoia Talia Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: ARROW Real Name: Gimli, son of Gloin. 4 Realz
| Message #42170 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 12:47 pm |
Hi folks. We at Long Arms would like to start (another) discussion on inter-clan PVP and acceptable parameters therein. With the inception of that frivolous and pretentious WoA in the senate, we at Long Arms feel that clans have developed different perception on what is acceptable PVP in this game.
Seeing as Muelsfell is a PVP game as per Kep...
Muelsfell was and is designed with the expectation that players will engage in PvP at least occasionally
...Long Arms would like to have all clans help hammer out rules of engagement that all clans should abide by.
I've already spoken to the esteemed GordonIronSmith and he and I agree on all premises.
- Do NOT attack Level 4 or lower players
- Keep repeated attacks to a minimum (Long Arms members will not attack more than twice unless there is a good reason to do so)
- Attacking Clan golems is completely out of bounds.
- Raiding is not acceptable
If players wish to avoid PVP altogether, they should go to the Premium menu and purchase NO PVP time. This will prevent people from being on the receiving end of unwanted attacks.
If we keep to these rules, there's no reason we can't have a little fun!
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SoujiPosts: 1376 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42173 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 3:29 pm |
Also remember that if you attack a Magi that has sent out their "defending" golem which may have a long return time it still appears that there is a golem defending the workshop and is thus a valid target. There are times in the past that this has happened and an attacker is not actually reading the attack report assumes that their attack was on said defender and not of the Clan Golem.
I know that it's an inconvenience to some members but please remember that when you are sending out your messages, sometimes nasty ones, that your clan golem was attacked and that you want said attacks to cease then ask yourself if the clan golem was the intended target or just an accident waiting to happen as we can not tell if the defending golem is "away" on a return trip or not.
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #42174 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 3:40 pm |
Personally I don't have much issue with attacking clan golems, just don't do it repeatedly or try to destroy them. That's what they are there for after all, what's the point if they're just rusting away in the depot? (please note I'm not necessarily speaking for my whole clan at this point, just my personal thoughts) PvP is an integral part of the game, and folks should be able to do it, within reason, as long as they're willing to deal with the possibility of getting attacked back. Which is where I see problems with how things are set up now. Some folks will go out on a killing spree with their gem3 (or whatever), then throw out a flesh 1, or a strength enhanced, ranged packing, transmuted low level bone (I'm not naming any names, and honestly not implicating you specifically, just your guard is a particularly good example) making it nigh impossible to respond in kind without losing a big pile of experience. I don't know what the solution to this is without changing some of the core principles of the game, but I've always found it pretty annoying (see the flesh guard thread in the combat discussions).
Woo that was long. The other problem you run into is people who don't put out a personal guard, and just let their clan guard handle things. That's fine, as long as you can attack the clan guard, but then when the clan gets all huffy for hitting it, well that's not very fair. Okay, I'll stop now. |
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CyrricPosts: 64 Location: Agoia Talia Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: ARROW Real Name: Gimli, son of Gloin. 4 Realz
| Message #42176 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 4:24 pm |
Flesh golems are tricky, but we have a few ways to get rid of them fast. Personally, I have a transmuted 1Flesh to Iron and a 1Flesh to Wood. Throw a Mortar Cannon on there and you get 5XP after one round. LOL.
The only problem I'd have with attacking defenderless players and hitting clan golems is if their defender was recently destroyed by someone else, why should they have to lose the clan defender too.
Ok, to stay on topic. The rules are still as follows:
- Do NOT attack Level 4 or lower players
- Keep repeated attacks to a minimum (Long Arms members will not attack more than twice unless there is a good reason to do so)
- Attacking Clan golems is completely out of bounds.
- Raiding is not acceptable
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| Noreen Posts: 102
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 108 years old
| Message #42180 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 7:33 pm |
Ok I have a couple of issues with some of this.
First the implication that if you don't want to PvP you should opt out. Now earlyer in the game that might have been a more resonable request when tickets were actualy being sold at around 60,000 coins (which was do able).. but now only those playing with money can achieve it. There should now be some concideration for those who don't actively engage in attacking others to be left alone.
Second the implication by some that hiting a clan guard was not intentional. When you go to attack someone, on thier page is "Last Active:". If this is in seconds or minutes then odds are thier golem is walking around not guarding.. if it says hours then you have a stationary golem to hit. (not that I support doing so.. but the guard is obvious to me)
Oh and if you "- Keep repeated attacks to a minimum" you should be prepared to accept a response of some sort with out over reacting yourselves. The dificulty is that that response is not always proportional but depends on how the attacked feels. So often, I hear about someone who is attacked once or twice and decides to attack back a few times.. then others in the clan from the original attacker pile on 5 or 6 hits. This is how wars start. Another one I see a lot is someone who would be NoPvP if they could aford it posts in the clan forum that they have been hit and asks someone respond in kind for them.. that also can quickly blow things out of proportion, but part of being in a clan is having others to defend you.
On a personal note I tend to resolve atacks by talking to the individual, but recently someone in the clan in question who had promised several months ago not to atack me ever again (in exchange for no response to his earlier attacks) has chosen to violate that agreement. That made the motion in the senate a whole lot more reasonable from my perspective.
more later probably..Last Edited: Feb 19, 2010, 8:03 pm |
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DemozPosts: 43 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 108 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #42185 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 8:26 pm |
| inter-clan disputes, i believe that skirmishes should just be held between two clans. by doing this it would give us a reason to attack.Also this should determine clan score and ranking.Laidan right some one can have a gem3 buff out and blitz.Clans wit high libary will have the upper hand.Some of the rules stated between clans, before our time cyrric. By u saying all clan pvp summit, to me thats already going on Last Edited: Feb 19, 2010, 8:30 pm |
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ShaylaPosts: 125 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 110 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42186 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 8:32 pm |
I'll have to go with laidan on this one. I've seen a lot of workshops without personal defenders, but with lvl 15 walls. I seriously doubt that a defending golem could be destroyed without touching the wall.
I would say that in this instance, attacking the Clan golem would not be out of bounds, as the magus in question is contravening the spirit of the game. And don't get me started on flesh golem defenders - IMHO, if you're above lvl 10, and have a flesh golem as a defender, you deserve to get attacked. Repeatedly.
I agree with the lvl 4 prohibition - I generally don't attack anyone under 10th level anyway.
Raiding, however, is something else. You need to disable the clan golem to even attempt a raid unless the magus is clanless, so that isn't going to be a very common practice. And, even clanless magi have the Dimitrian Guard hanging around after one attack, anyway. I would say, maybe, one raiding attack wouldn't be out of line? I can't see myself doing it, but wouldn't a strict prohibition on raiding undermine the rules of the game?
Here's another potential issue - coordinated attacks. These can be devastating, even if you're online and paying attention. Shall we limit these to only during open clan warfare?
Oh, and I completely agree with Cyrric:
If players wish to avoid PVP altogether, they should go to the Premium menu and purchase NO PVP time. This will prevent people from being on the receiving end of unwanted attacks.
Let's have none of this nonsense about "no-PvP" clans, or "out-of-bounds" magi. If a magus wants to opt out of PvP, they should either pony up the cash for tickets, beg them from other players, or buy them on the market. As Kep says in the PvP Options thread in the General Gameplay forum:
Fifteen(15) Premium Tickets shouldn't be very difficult to acquire in trades on the Rildesjan Market, even for those not interested in purchasing them from the Premium page. I encourage people who have extra tickets to use them in trades for other things you may want.
Perhaps we who have Premium Tickets should be more willing to sell them on the market (for reasonable prices - I'm looking at you, Vampyre ;) ).
Also - Aonghus, if you're reading this thread, you will be able to see that we're trying to have a real discussion about the appropriate use of PvP. If you want to offer your opinion, please do so here.
Thanks,
<3, Shayla |
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SkitzYiePosts: 383 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 111 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42187 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 8:38 pm |
Speaking of Aonghus, and his recent contribution to the Tattler.
There appears to be some discrepancy between what some see as friendly back and forth PVP and others as hostile intentions.
I hope that we can all come to an agreement as what constitutes what. Last Edited: Feb 19, 2010, 10:09 pm |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #42190 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 9:27 pm |
Okay I wrote up a nice long post and it got eaten by a stray enter, so crap!!!! any way.
I agree with alot that's being said and would like to post an updated set of Guide lines I nee to stress that these can not be considered rules, as rules will never work.
-1-3 attack are fine, but attacks over that generally means your attacking to destroy or just trying to do as much damage as you can.
-Raiding will get your hands smacked.
-Clan golems I'm now leaning to allow the odd guard attacks, but more then 2 attacks on guards is a bit much.
-Homunculi on lowbies are a no-no, though veteran players are fair play.
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ShaylaPosts: 125 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 110 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42195 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 11:00 pm |
| GordonIronsmith said:
-1-3 attack are fine, but attacks over that generally means your attacking to destroy or just trying to do as much damage as you can.
-Raiding will get your hands smacked.
-Clan golems I'm now leaning to allow the odd guard attacks, but more then 2 attacks on guards is a bit much.
-Homunculi on lowbies are a no-no, though veteran players are fair play.
I agree with Gordon on all of these points.
@Noreen - for one, "never attack me again" is IMHO rather ridiculous. Considering that several months is quite a long time in-game, you may want to cut the magus in question some slack - or pound them a few times as a reminder of your bargain.
For another, the minimum time shown on "Last Active" is "within the last 15 minutes". I don't see any reason to avoid attacking at that time - if you hit the clan golem, you hit the clan golem. That's what they're there for anyway, right? To protect your workshop when your defending golem is away?
As for the WoA in the senate being reasonable, I have to say that I really don't know why anyone would think so. From what I've seen in the clan forums, Long Arms members have been (for the most part) respectful when it comes to PvP. Those that crossed the line paid for it in retaliations, were reminded of the guidelines by the clan officers, and that was typically the end of it.
<3, Shayla |
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CyrricPosts: 64 Location: Agoia Talia Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: ARROW Real Name: Gimli, son of Gloin. 4 Realz
| Message #42196 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 11:15 pm |
| SkitzYie said:
Speaking of Aonghus, and his recent contribution to the Tattler.
There appears to be some discrepancy between what some see as friendly back and forth PVP and others as hostile intentions.
I hope that we can all come to an agreement as what constitutes what.
LOL I just read it. Either he missed the point of the Summit, fails to understand that this is a PVP game, or he's just not all that bright. Either way, he and his writ are irrelevant to the discussion.
In regards to Noreen's points, I'd like to ask how we're to know who is and is not available for PVP? We can't assume everyone in the game is anti-PVP, and I'm not going to keep a personal record of everyone who says they don't want to PVP. If avoiding attacks is that important, purchasing No PVP time is really your only option.
On a personal note I tend to resolve atacks by talking to the individual, but recently someone in the clan in question who had promised several months ago not to atack me ever again (in exchange for no response to his earlier attacks) has chosen to violate that agreement. That made the motion in the senate a whole lot more reasonable from my perspective.
Are you joking? Not only do attack reports get deleted after 14 days, but you complain about a PVP event that happened several months before?
Let's postulate that everyone chooses to keep a running record of all people who complain about PVP in their notes: Now, every time I check someone's workshop to see if they have something even worth bothering over, I THEN have to cross check their name on the aforementioned list to see if they'll submit a Writ of Attainder for scratching their iron golem? |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #42197 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 11:17 pm |
I suppose another important thing to remember is that we are all faceless, and we can't see everything that goes on behind the scene. That can be very hard to remember.
Another thing to remember is that attacks are retaliations are the same thing in the end, and if you over retaliate you basically become the aggressor.Last Edited: Feb 20, 2010, 12:48 am |
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DemozPosts: 43 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 108 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #42198 Posted: Feb 19, 2010, 11:43 pm |
| nothing is worth premi tickets unless u really need the item. Why give u 5 tix for 90000 of anything when i can build that over night. My tix will be spend to magi wit good offers. Looking for lvl 5 brass |
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GuyverPosts: 125 Location: Rimesvin Magus Age: 104 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42199 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 12:01 am |
if we need to accomodate broke non pvpers why not just set aside a gaurd golem name to announce that
any gaurd with the name nopvp***** will not be attacked, if someone using that decides to attack others, they can post copies of his attacks to his clan magistrate and whale on him accordingly. im sure there would still be occasional hiccups but this would greatly reduce the frequency of the problems. and just ignore Aonghus, id be censored if i tried to voice my opinion of him, and im not even one our active pvpers. |
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DemozPosts: 43 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 108 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #42202 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 1:14 am |
| " Only attack lvl 4 and up".that would make the game nice for u.Dude ur trying to tell ppl who and what to attack.That do not sound fair. Iam going attack who i feel no matter wht is out.About the remark arrow, only that magi an speak for himself |
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KennethPosts: 133 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 104 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #42205 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 1:54 am |
well, what if you yourself were below lvl. 4? Then you should be able to attack below lvl. 4, right?
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And what really ticks me off in PVP is how some people just barg in with a huge iron 5 or something, and nearly demolish my guard, then go and hide behind their stupid granite wall.Last Edited: Feb 20, 2010, 1:55 am |
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GuyverPosts: 125 Location: Rimesvin Magus Age: 104 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42206 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 2:49 am |
| too true about the wall, attacks on a granite wall should not count toward an attack limit |
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CyrricPosts: 64 Location: Agoia Talia Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: ARROW Real Name: Gimli, son of Gloin. 4 Realz
| Message #42210 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 3:09 am |
| Demoz said:
" Only attack lvl 4 and up".that would make the game nice for u.Dude ur trying to tell ppl who and what to attack.That do not sound fair. Iam going attack who i feel no matter wht is out.About the remark arrow, only that magi an speak for himself
LOL! Wow. Not even going to dignify this with a response other than the following:
Let it be known that Demoz of Hereti Corps wishes to continue to attack players of level 4 and lower.
Draw your own conclusions, folks... |
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| GordonIronsmith Posts: 434
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #42216 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 3:42 am |
| Kenneth said:
And what really ticks me off in PVP is how some people just barg in with a huge iron 5 or something, and nearly demolish my guard, then go and hide behind their stupid granite wall.
I didn't hide behind my granite wall XD. I'll take my lumps as I give them out, tis only fair.
Demoz said:
" Only attack lvl 4 and up".that would make the game nice for u.Dude ur trying to tell ppl who and what to attack.That do not sound fair. Iam going attack who i feel no matter wht is out.About the remark arrow, only that magi an speak for himself
Remember these are guide lines, but again, I'm not sure about you, but I have yet to meet any vicious Level 1-4's. I did however get hit by a nasty level 5 once (Really I did! He(she?) was crazy!), but that didn't last very long.
Guyver said:
if we need to accomodate broke non pvpers why not just set aside a gaurd golem name to announce that
any gaurd with the name nopvp***** will not be attacked, if someone using that decides to attack others, they can post copies of his attacks to his clan magistrate and whale on him accordingly. im sure there would still be occasional hiccups but this would greatly reduce the frequency of the problems. and just ignore Aonghus, id be censored if i tried to voice my opinion of him, and im not even one our active pvpers.
Wicked Idea! One of, if not, the best Ideas I've heard yet.
Last Edited: Feb 20, 2010, 3:44 am |
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CyrricPosts: 64 Location: Agoia Talia Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: ARROW Real Name: Gimli, son of Gloin. 4 Realz
| Message #42217 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 4:04 am |
Current Discussed Guidelines are as follows:
- Do NOT attack Level 4 or lower players
- Keep repeated attacks to a minimum (Long Arms members will not attack more than twice unless there is a good reason to do so)
- Attacking Clan golems is completely out of bounds.
- Raiding is not acceptable
Suggested additional Guidelines:
- Do not attack any personal defender named NO PVP.
I have one slight problem with this suggestion. Due to currently existing in-game constraints, this enables people to hide behind said NO PVP defender until they feel like attacking someone. Since it's a rather moot point, however, I'll concede it.
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Here's an interesting question:
What do players OBJECT to about PVP in this game? Personally, I find it to be an incredibly forgiving system. All it ends up costing you is no more than 25,000 of any resource for a full repair. At full resource generation, that's literally a pittance.
The only problem I can see is if someone invests XP into strength boosting their defender, thus making it's destruction rather costly.Last Edited: Feb 20, 2010, 4:09 am |
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| Noreen Posts: 102
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 108 years old
| Message #42218 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 6:45 am |
| Shayla said:
@Noreen - for one, "never attack me again" is IMHO rather ridiculous. Considering that several months is quite a long time in-game, you may want to cut the magus in question some slack - or pound them a few times as a reminder of your bargain.
Eh.. should not have brought it up, but it was something they spicificaly agreed to when they were already having trouble with others thay had attacked.. and what made me think the clan might be up to something. I have that sort of arangement with one other person, so not that common of a request.
For another, the minimum time shown on "Last Active" is "within the last 15 minutes". I don't see any reason to avoid attacking at that time - if you hit the clan golem, you hit the clan golem. That's what they're there for anyway, right? To protect your workshop when your defending golem is away?
<3, Shayla
Well I am not sure why you think of it as if you hit the clan golem.. its more like when you hit it. If I am at "within the last 15 minutes", then you have about 15 second that my golem is defending vs say 7 minutes travel time.. clan seems most likely. Not that it is nessesaraly wrong, just don't claim it was unintentional when you set out to do it. |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #42219 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 9:49 am |
I fully agree that there could be common rules/guidelines amongst those clans that wish to PVP. Players that do not want to PVP will need to either opt out or to accept attacks as part of the course or join a NON-PVP clan.
With a NON-PVP clan there are no chances of mistakes. Non of us wish to PVP other than by prior arrangement. Clan members who break this rule can and have been exiled.
But from a NON PVP clan perspective I do see a huge down side to these guidelines. For rules/guidelines to work there must be enforcement or at least political pressure to conform from the community at large. This is very open to abuse. I foresee that both players and clans that do not like the idea off NON-PVP clans, will use this to their advantage and attack NON-PVP clans like us freely, then claiming they are just following the guidelines. We will have little we can do to discourage them without breaking the guidelines and turning ourselves into the bad guys in the eyes of the community. All the old hands here know what happened to the last lot of bad guys, (fun times :) ).
This idea should not be used to force NON-PVP clans into PVP.
MS |
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DemozPosts: 43 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 108 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #42223 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 2:28 pm |
| u dont want to fight buy tixs. this is arrows way controling the game using there multi accounts |
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XorphitusPosts: 182 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: HAVOC | Message #42224 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 2:43 pm |
My few words on this issue:
PvP ettiquette sounds nice but never works. Sorry, this is my experience. So you have to organize retribution yourself. And hit back hard and painfully.
And my PvP approach is simple. You attack me, you get attacked back. You attack my clan mates, you get attacked. You destroy a golem of mine, expect to lose one or two as well. You use game balance screwing items and features to get an upper hand in PvP fights against me, expect me to hit back with other game mechanics (i.e. WoA). So ASTRO just uses another weapon against ARROW since those ranged weapons and winter slayblades are hard to battle against; perfectly in order for me, though I would personally only pick up the Senate weapon when really pissed off.
Draw your own conclusions,
Xorphitus |
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GuyverPosts: 125 Location: Rimesvin Magus Age: 104 years old Clan: ARROW | Message #42226 Posted: Feb 20, 2010, 3:14 pm |
the issue here is a way for people to opt out without spending money, AND have it recognized without every pvp player having to search a lengthy list before every attack. having a golem name set aside for that would be an easy fast way to get across "i don't pvp" if someone tries to attack and then hide behind that, i would suggest that the attacked party notify is chief magistrate ' they may want to remove his clan golem to prevent dmg to it" and then have a short period of free hits on him. same thing in the opposite direction, if someone hits a nopvp golem, notify his clan magistrate give him 24hrs to remove clan golem if that is his intent, then announce free hits on game forum. even if the agreed window for free hits is just 24hrs, with a whole clan or worse the whole game hitting someone, wall and resources are at least gonna be shot. if some does it repeatedly, well, i guess harsher measures would be needed to deal with him. i dont think a clan would want someone who was constantly bringing that kind of attention.
ps.
1) i welcome attack so long as it is not repeated, i am looking for someone to trade fleshies with and maybe just test new weapons/builds. |
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