| Author | Thread: PVP Aspect |
TalerousPosts: 14 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 121 years old Clan: OASIS Email: elementalultima@hotmail.com
| Message #905 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 4:56 am |
| I doubt this will go over well, probably won't be implamented and will likely meet with a lot of resistance, but could there be a way to turn off PK completely if you're not interested in participating? I have no plans to attack anyone in the near future, I'm more interested in the concept of the game, exploration, roleplaying, building golems. I'm glad buildings can't be destroyed anymore, and I really don't mind losing resources, but I was sort of thinking about clans. I'd rather not invest time and resources into something that could be raided, cleaned out and ruined within a day, especially not if I put a lot of work into it. On the same hand I'd still like to have the benefits of a clan, specialized weapons, further research, etc. I know there are a lot of you out there, probably the majority of the game, that enjoy PK and think clans would suck without it, and that's fine. I'm just saying it should be more a voluntary act than a forced one. This game is awesome, and I'm glad building destruction on individual mages is gone, because otherwise this game would have turned into another Legend of the Green Dragon. Just a thought. I hope it gets some serious consideration, pk is nice, but forced pk in my opinion isn't quite so nice. |
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| Daniel Posts: 102
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 114 years old
Real Name: Daniel
| Message #907 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 5:11 am |
I'ma have to disagree with you on this one, Muelsfell would have no risks without pk'ing, You could slowly and surely build yourself up and not have to worry about anything.
I made a mistake and left my fleshie out once and worked for 12 hours,I check back in halfway through, Fleshie was destroy and my workshop was completely open for the rest of the time.
Also the new features being added, Such as using motivation for military aid are making it easier to slowly build yourself up without having to worry about raids as much, Sure you won't gain experience or score as fast as other people but at least you'll be playing safely without much risk at all, Which is pretty much all you can ask for, Cautious people take less risks, and while they'll usually end out safe in the end they'll further themselves at a slower pace.
Thus you can have your 'safe mode' while I'll advance faster, Everybody wins |
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NecariaPosts: 505 Location: Rildesjan Magus Age: 115 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #909 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 6:20 am |
Personally, although I don't exactly mind PvP I would prefer it to be optional as well as it's just not something I'm terribly interested in.
As for time spent, using half your motivation to cut it down to 1 attack per hour is a pretty large reduction, especially since it doesn't really stop people from breaking you if they're at all motivated and catch you while you're asleep or working or the like. Rather I'd say that the benefits of PvP should be the gains in xp and resources from it. Even now you get more xp for attacking an equal player than you do for an equal monster, and once it's balanced out more I would assume the rewards will only increase. That would, I'd expect, be plenty of motivation for people to PvP even if it is optional, and give you the edge you think it should give assuming you do well at it.
Perhaps there could still be a penalty for no PvP if people are really against it just being a base option. Maybe rather than wasting your motivation there could be a 'tax' or the like, where you give up 10% of your income for it. However, I will reiterate that if done well I think PvP would be it's own reward and no penalty would be necessary for those that do not want to partake. Especially when clans come in, as that sort of thing always breeds a lot of conflict regardless of the setup. |
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TalerousPosts: 14 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 121 years old Clan: OASIS Email: elementalultima@hotmail.com
| Message #912 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 11:49 am |
| PVP I have no problem with. PVP with massive penalties where you can be cleaned out by someone who needs resources/is bored/hates you in a day I do have a problem wit. If you could just say, attack someone, pit your golem against theirs with no destruction, gain XP, I'd be fine with it. In truth I don't really mind the way PK is set up right now, where all you really lose is resources and even though its possible to lose your golem, you still get XP for it. But I've just never been into the PVP aspect of the game, and there's no way I'm going to spend valuable motivation cutting back on spam attacks, especially since it only lasts 24 hours and at the time I don't even think I have enough motivation to get it down to 1 per hour. Or if I do it'd leave me with 0 motivation to get experience. As for no risk sanario just allowing you to build up without worrying about anything, that would be the goal. I don't play games like this for the risk or challenge factor, I play them because the concept looks interesting or something catches my ineterst about the game. Usually I don't stick with games where PVP is forced, but this game is cool enough that even if this optional PVP suggestion gets shot down, which I'm pretty certain it will, I'll probably stick with it anyway. Suppose I could live without a clan, I'm just not going to, like I said, put time, money and resources into something that could be destroyed within hours of creation by a super clan, especially since I'd likely just make a clan for me and a couple of my friends and a 3 person clan it doesn't seem would to doo well in this game with forced PVP. Anyway it was just a thought. Optional PVP would be nice, or at least no clan destruction (Both ideas from KoL,) but I suppose there's workarounds for everything. |
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #913 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 12:25 pm |
I played Tribal Wars for a number of months and became a significant player on my continent and tribe - all without ever attacking anyone. Due to the location of my starting village, the regional attrition, my patience, and my clan's prestige - the game was pretty much just SimCity for me. I got bored and quit. (I mean, it is called tribal WARS and all).
That said, I partially agree with you. I have viewed the coming of clans as being an "all bonus" scenario, with a number of features and benefits exclusive to the clans.
IMHO perhaps PVP is a clan only activity. If I don't want to be in a clan and stay safe on the sidelines, fine. I'll never get the badass weapon either.
From a roleplaying perspective, it made sense to me in a classical Vendetta way - the feud is between clans and involving the little people on the sidelines is an unspoken (but enforced) rule.
Mechanics wise - once you join a clan, you're open season. Even if I leave the clan, I am forever open season. (insert favorite mob movie quote here). |
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| Kestha Posts: 16
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 115 years old
| Message #917 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 1:54 pm |
Personally, i'd love to see this implimented, sinse I'm also not keen on pvp but really interested in the question and exploration aspects of the game. If people want to attack other players and risk attacks themselves, ---- fair enough, afterall people play games for different reasons, and they have the rewards from those attacks not to mention clan fuding and such going. If people would prefer to stay out of the hole business though, ---- it's just a different way of playing the game, imho having the game, and a different reason for playing games in general.
One of the great strengths of muelsfell seems to be the variety of things to do other than pvp, --- and that's in fact why i play. But it doesn't seem fair that I'd have to use up all of my motivation which I'd rather fight monsters with just to avoid participating in pvp which I'm not interested in anyway, (and as has been said it doesn't completely avoid things).
I like the suggestion of making pvp clan only, sinse afterall if your part of a warring plan more resources are! put into weapons etc.
Perhaps as compensation non-pvp players could gain more quest slots instead, --- maybe even specific quests for spell components or other items which would require loads and loads of monster slaying and hunting.
In game terms this could be explained as swearing an oath to some brotherhood of mages or other party which really is against conflict, ---- said party could then offer the extra hunting quests as an alternative to take up the non-pvp player's time and resources (similar to the %10 income reduction idea, but more fun and imho more equal). |
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TalerousPosts: 14 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 121 years old Clan: OASIS Email: elementalultima@hotmail.com
| Message #920 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 2:38 pm |
| Ok. I have to say I agree with this fully. It wouldn't really be fair to make clan PVP optional, since you'd be getting the same benefits as someone who was pvp in a clan without taking the same risks they are. I personally think it should take the KoL approach though, non-clan PVP is optional, clan PVP is manditory but you can't really be completely screwed over. In KoL I don't think its possible to destroy clans. My worry isn't losing resources, its building a clan up to level 5 or so, getting a fairly decent start in golems, then coming back the next day to find that youre resources are gone, you're down to one building, your golems have been annihilated and you just wasted 2 weeks of your life building something up that you now have to start completely from scratch on. Granted you could stay out of this just by not joining a clan, and granted I'm not really much of a huge clan person either. But on the other hand this game hasn't really started to fill up yet. Perhaps it will become more like KoL where the big super clans war with eachother and for the most part leave everyone else alone. I haven't seen my clan on KoL attacked for quite some time now. Tzadkiel said:
I played Tribal Wars for a number of months and became a significant player on my continent and tribe - all without ever attacking anyone. Due to the location of my starting village, the regional attrition, my patience, and my clan's prestige - the game was pretty much just SimCity for me. I got bored and quit. (I mean, it is called tribal WARS and all).
That said, I partially agree with you. I have viewed the coming of clans as being an "all bonus" scenario, with a number of features and benefits exclusive to the clans.
IMHO perhaps PVP is a clan only activity. If I don't want to be in a clan and stay safe on the sidelines, fine. I'll never get the badass weapon either.
From a roleplaying perspective, it made sense to me in a classical Vendetta way - the feud is between clans and involving the little people on the sidelines is an unspoken (but enforced) rule.
Mechanics wise - once you join a clan, you're open season. Even if I leave the clan, I am forever open season. (insert favorite mob movie quote here). |
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| Kestha Posts: 16
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 115 years old
| Message #942 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 9:25 pm |
I can see the point of the KoL system of Pvp being entirely clan based only, but then there would be some possible concerns with balance.
as has already been said, the pvp clan players would need to put resources into the pvp system to get their uba weapons of doom and fight off other people, whereas the non-pvp players could just sit back and build up. If clan warring got too fierce this could (as someone has already said), give a bit too much advantage to the non-clan players, whereas if the clan advantages were too extreme, the non-pvp players would be on the losing end.
this is why i'd suggest two possible paths, pvp or non-pvp, and offer the specific challenges suted to the non-pvp path with their own rewards of quests, spells or other items, just as their are specific challenges suted to the pvp path.
so where as the pvp player will be attacking others to get their resources and earn their weapons from their clan, the non-pvp player would have quests like kill 300 white sky hounds for their fir to gain either extra resources or items (possibly given by the brotherhood of pacifistic mages I mentioned earlier).
while i admit I have no interest in attacking or being attacked, ---- I certainly don't want to have an easy ride, and sinse I enjoy the monster hunting and questing the same way some people here seem to enjoy attacking other players, ---- it seems fair that I follow a path which has me do more of it so as to make our positions more equal.
Secondly, while I understand and appreciate that the developers are working on the clans and clan equipment right now, I love the fact that other more questing type systems such as fishing are being implimented in future. i would hope that just as the clan pvp gets new stuff added, there would be other stuff external to the clan and pvp system to be added as well so as to keep the game experience fresh for the non-pvp bunch, --- extra quests, more creatures etc. this certainly seems to be what's going on at the moment, I just hope it will continue when the clans go live. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #947 Posted: Apr 4, 2008, 9:54 pm |
I was toying with the idea of a "No PvP" path for clans. You'd choose this upon clan creation and would not be able to change it. A clan with this setting would be able to build few if any weapons or items, but would be safe from attack as would its members (and likewise, the members would be unable to attack anyone else). If you'd attacked someone within the past 24 hours, you'd not be able to join until you'd gone at least 24 hours without attacking anyone.
There's a problem with this idea. Players would be able to join the clan, build up their own workshops/golems/etc in perfect safety, then quit the clan and be in a better position to attack than someone else who didn't do the exact same thing.
I do want to help folks who are more interested in exploring the game and roleplaying than doing a lot of attacking (though remember the two are not mutually exclusive), but I think the No PvP Clan idea may only be replacing one problem with another.
I'll be pondering ideas for the next few days. Still crazy busy right now, so I won't be able to put a lot of attention on Muelsfell until next week.
Kep |
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| Kestha Posts: 16
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 115 years old
| Message #957 Posted: Apr 5, 2008, 12:10 am |
Hi.
I'm really glad your considdering these sorts of options in game, and I love the idea of non-pvp clans.
I'm not sure how it worked along side the KoL clan system, but I know that changing your character's personal pvp active status would take three weeks, which obviously was to prevent the sort of thing you mention.
Perhaps a similarly long time limit would work here as well?
Alternatively, you could handicap the non-pvp players in some way, ---- say by having to go hunting for specific items dropped by monsters in order to level up to equalize the gameplay, meaning non-pvp players would have to spend more time and resources exploring the world and pounding monsters than those engaged in combat with other magi. |
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TalerousPosts: 14 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 121 years old Clan: OASIS Email: elementalultima@hotmail.com
| Message #959 Posted: Apr 5, 2008, 1:39 am |
| Or you could even make it so that if you join a non-pvp clan, the only way to get out is if the clan disbanded. Then all you'd have to do is make the costs enough so that people wouldn't just make a clan, build up and disband it, and perhaps implament the KoL style of PVP like Kestha said, where it'd take you 3 weeks to a month to get back into PVP status, and things should work out ok. All that being said, I personally think that instead of just being a loose group of friends with almost no advantages, both paths should offer some kind of challenge. The PVP aspect could be awesome weapons and armor and the like, and the non PVP clans could maybe make monster hunting more profitable. It's definitely an interesting idea, and I would agree with the more risky of the paths getting more advantages, kind of like a hardcore style of play, but provided this does happen even the non pvp path should have at least one advantage, even if it is just the clan's massive storage bay to save up resources. In any case I like the split clan paths, I hope you give that more consideration. Keep up the good work, this game is awesome. |
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| Tallis Posts: 30
Location: Villuno
Magus Age: 115 years old
Real Name: Kel
| Message #960 Posted: Apr 5, 2008, 1:44 am |
I have a question - Why should you penalize people who do not choose to participate in the PVP aspect of the game? I think that being able to be attacked is much less risky with the no longer losing buildings. Yes, golems are expensive to make, but buildings... that's the serious investment. (If someone smushed my library, I'd be incredibly upset, for example.)
Currently, I think that the way the buildings interact with resources is perfectly acceptable. It's probably not worth a higher level player attacking an individual lower level player - they won't have resources or money worth the potential work, even if a flesh golem is relatively easy to defeat... although, perhaps considering the level difference is the way to make it even less appealing to attack someone grossly outclassed.
You (with your high level golem) attack me (with my flesh golem... I'm working on it!), and you get a tiny amount of experience, but I get more - make the experience equivalent to attacking an NPC monster of the same level-equivalent. So, if you attack my level 1 golem with your level ~10 golem, you get little experience, little loot (cause I just don't have the resources) and I get lots of experience, and lose my little loot (if you take it).
Maybe work in a way for mage level + golem level to be the determining factor to make it less likely that a higher level mage will leave out their flesh golem to decrease their desirability as a target.
That way, people's risk is more equivalent to their ability to actually dedicate resources to withstanding the risks.
Note: I have no real desire to attack other people. I don't think this should exclude me from being able to be attacked - with the missions and the barricade and the hidden room, there are a lot of options open to me to protect myself. I'd probably be disappointed if my clan couldn't get the neat weapons for fighting against monsters just because I don't want to attack other players.
I like that I have to balance hidden room against barricade, against storage bin against library expansion to stay "safe". That's an interesting aspect of the game. I have a building; there are people who steal from buildings; these people might try to steal from me. I don't like that people might steal from me, but I have to protect my property... seems only right. |
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| Kestha Posts: 16
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 115 years old
| Message #1046 Posted: Apr 7, 2008, 9:40 pm |
Oook! just got spam attacked when i was golemless, despite my missions (which must have meant someone was very! persistant.
if people want this sort of thing in the game fair enough, that's their decision, --- but the sooner theres a way to opt out or play the game differently, the better I'll be pleased. |
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| Canaan Posts: 13
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 137 years old
Real Name: Jonathan
| Message #1050 Posted: Apr 7, 2008, 11:27 pm |
| I have to agree with Daniel - the game, at the end of the day, seems to be about building golems and making them fight each other. Allowing folks to opt out of that would seem to unbalance the game no matter what... I would like to see an arena though where you can go golem-a-golem without fighting the huge defense penalty... :-) |
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| Kestha Posts: 16
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 115 years old
| Message #1099 Posted: Apr 8, 2008, 5:03 pm |
I repeat, different people want different things out of a game. I myself love the resource management and exploration aspects, quests etc, that's the reason i'm here, and being attacked is just an annoyence at best for me.
I do however like the idea of a dueling arena, sinse afterall that way both parties would have to agree to sending their golems in to fight and there'd be none of this random free for all aspect. |
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