| Author | Thread: PVP opt out in combat guilds | Page 1 | 2 |
| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9264 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 6:45 pm |
Magier, who has been under recent distress of their own devising, has had a number of members Opt out of PVP.
My problem with this is...are they still allowed to trade with their guild, basically making them reprisal-free mules? This does not seem right to me.
Magier is still making attacks constantly upon other guilds, but we can do nothing back to them because they leave out no golems and have little to no resources to raid. There is something wrong with the system if they are allowed to have mules they can store anything on, and attack with another with no negatives. |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9265 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 6:47 pm |
The solution? PVP opt outs should not be able to trade, either within or outside a guild with other PVP players.
Let them trade amoungst themselves, but not with the rest of the games players. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #9267 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 7:07 pm |
Er... why not? In our clan we have some legitimately opt-out players who are helping the war effort by building golems, armor, et cetera and giving them to the pvp members. We're a community, after all, and everyone seems to want to do their part. The problem here isn't the opt-out, it's the mules - having one person control both a pvp account and an opt-out account makes for an impenetrable defense.
Myself, I'd rather see the opt-out go than the ability to trade with others. At that point, is an opt-out even playing the same game the rest of us are? |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9269 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 7:30 pm |
What you're saying is that you want to make clans exclusive to PvP players. If that's what Ark ever decides to do then that'll be that. Some of our members have decided to opt out of PvP for whatever reasons, yes, but to put your paranoia to rest they are actual people, and we're not stashing our resources on them. It seems like the only problem this is causing you is frustration that you can't attack any player at will.
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| Poseidon Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 113 years old
Real Name: Jack Website: Click HereEmail: kingclown00@hotmail.com | Message #9270 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 7:30 pm |
| Simple fix. Make it so they can trade golems/items/eyes ect freely, but can only buy resources. That way, if they try and use a mule as a storage bin, they cant get the resources back out. |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9273 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 7:36 pm |
| But here's the thing, that's placing a restriction on players opting out of pvp. These aren't multi-accounts we're talking about here, these are individual people. Not sure what you mean by "buy resources" If they can use the market then any two accounts, individual people or multis, could still trade, and if not, then they could use the clan transfer office. the only fix I can see is preventing no-pvp people from using the market or clan transfer function... which is just silly. |
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| ShaoKahn Posts: 99
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 141 years old
Real Name: Craig
Email: craigbrett17@aol.com
| Message #9278 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 8:38 pm |
| I'd like to see it work that if yor clan is in a skirmish (or clan wars are on if they get put in) then you shouldn't be able to go no pvp whilst in the clan. Giving you the choice stay and fight alongside your clan or go off on your own and go no pvp for a while and build yourself up a bit more. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #9282 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 8:57 pm |
| or maybe put something in the code to prevent someone from going into no pvp in between the time that a skirmish starts and the skirmish finishes. but if someone opts out of pvp between skirmishes then to leave them. it would be like not enlisting versus going awol. |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9284 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 9:15 pm |
| CommComms said:
But here's the thing, that's placing a restriction on players opting out of pvp. These aren't multi-accounts we're talking about here, these are individual people. Not sure what you mean by "buy resources" If they can use the market then any two accounts, individual people or multis, could still trade, and if not, then they could use the clan transfer office. the only fix I can see is preventing no-pvp people from using the market or clan transfer function... which is just silly.
We're not placing restrictions upon them. That's why it's called opt-out. They're placing the restrictions on themselves. They've already chosen to play the game differently then the large majority of the playerbase.
The problem is that currently, it's a far too abusable system, and pardon me if I don't believe your claims that's it's not being abused, as you've shown yourself to be a rather untrustworthy and tasteless individual.
Regardless, something needs to be done to prevent it from happening, even if it isn't currently being abused, it most certainly will be at some point in the future. |
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| CommComms Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9287 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 10:09 pm |
Gryf, whatever your problem is, do us all a favor and keep it off the main boards. You can message me, or if you feel the need to preach to others post in some threads in the clan forums.
There already are anti-multi safeguards in place, and I'm sure more will be added in the future. As for someone hypothetically hiding all their secondary resources on someone else's account with no PvP, yes I guess that could be considered an abuse, but how inconvenient it would be to have to have both of you online every time the pvp player wanted to use the secondaries. The problem you seem to be most concerned about is people abusing multiple accounts, and that's already a topic that's been addressed several times over and is relatively fixed at the moment.
Nanashi's idea has merit, but the problem is when you're in a sizable clan, you're almost always going to be in the middle of a skirmish with someone unless the clan turns them off. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #9293 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 10:55 pm |
True, with a sizable clan, it is almost certain that you are going to have at least one skirmish on at any given time. The argument to that would be...maybe you should try to piss fewer people off? I don't know if it would be appropriate to set some kind of time frame or limit on active skirmishes (not meaning ending them).
But set a limit on active skirmishes that a clan can be in at any one time (limits your options but you can see the merits). Also a time frame could be put in place saying that a clam member can't opt out of pvp until so many days after the start of a skirmish. |
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #9296 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 11:05 pm |
Good suggestions, but what about the Clans who don't PvP? I'm not sure a broad, global solution to all Clans would address this and yet keep the game enjoyable for those who don't PvP.
Technically, if the Clan goes to war/skirmish and members don't support the Clan, the Clan officers do have the option to exile them if that is the call for lack of support. That hopefully addresses ShaoKahns concerns. Not sure what, if any, steps would be taken about resource/golem/item construction by members not actively participating though. |
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[ADMIN] ArkhamPosts: 902 Location: Mallow Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: AGOMC | Message #9302 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 11:46 pm |
I just wanted to post to let folks know I'm not ignoring this issue, but I'm not ready to reveal my thoughts or plans at this point. :)
I am reading, tracking, and pondering.
Kep |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #9304 Posted: Aug 3, 2008, 11:55 pm |
You do realize that if anyone in the clan attacks anyone in any other clan, that puts the entire clan in a skirmish? It's impractical to place restrictions based on skirmishes.
Frankly, I think no-PVP defeats the purpose of the entire game, but I know there was a big fuss to allow it. Even without clans, any cooperation between a PVP player and a non-PVP player leads to this "bug". |
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| Gryficus Posts: 239
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 121 years old
| Message #9311 Posted: Aug 4, 2008, 1:18 am |
that's the point.
If people opt-out of PVP, they shouldn't be able to participate in it...at all. That means supporting a war effort just as much as actually attacking someone. That's not NO-PVP, that's limited and protected PVP. If you choose to not partake in it, it should be enforced to the full extent.
The fact that you can support a war effort with no reprisal is not what no-PVP was designed to do. It was supposed to be a way for people who wanted nothing to do with PVP to enjoy the building portion of the game without having to deal with fighting. Let it be that, but just that. |
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PeggaPosts: 702 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: ADV | Message #9314 Posted: Aug 4, 2008, 1:48 am |
| One easy solution to this is to only allow PVP-clans and non-PVP clans, just like it can be restricted by other attributes already. It might upset a few players, but it would solve the problem and any possible abuse. |
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 123 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #9323 Posted: Aug 4, 2008, 3:07 am |
point of order - Opting out isn't a sudden decision. If you've attacked someone, you have to wait a WEEK to then opt out of PVP.
While you might call it excessive, it does work. If your clan gets into a combat, you can run for the hills. if you actually participate even once in direct conflict, you have to stand down and take what's coming to you for a week before you can skulk away. |
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PeggaPosts: 702 Location: Jaaron Magus Age: 122 years old Clan: ADV | Message #9354 Posted: Aug 4, 2008, 12:44 pm |
| Tzadkiel said:
If you actually participate even once in direct conflict, you have to stand down and take what's coming to you for a week before you can skulk away.
See, that's the problem. They aren't "actually" participating; they're just (theoretically) providing the replacement resources. A clan could have a set number of "soldiers" who attack. They personally have no resources in their workshop, it is all supplied by the "logistics" players. Via the PVP opt out, those players can sit back without the threat of being attacked! In a sense, they're hiding behind it. Thus, the whole purpose of this discussion. |
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TzadkielPosts: 596 Location: Broukendale Magus Age: 123 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #9358 Posted: Aug 4, 2008, 1:29 pm |
I see your point, I just wanted to stress that Opting Out wasn't a cakewalk once the fighting had begun.
The concern would be magnified if the clan leaders could (as I believe they should) be able to withdraw clan resources and redistribute them as needed. Though, I suppose that really is a detail best left until actual CLAN combat begins. If I can raid the central MAGIER storehouse, the whole three card monte becomes difficult to manage on their end.
We chase the carrot - so long as you can't hid it completely, it fair(ish) |
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| Tariana Posts: 162
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old
| Message #9365 Posted: Aug 4, 2008, 4:08 pm |
| Pegga said:
One easy solution to this is to only allow PVP-clans and non-PVP clans, just like it can be restricted by other attributes already. It might upset a few players, but it would solve the problem and any possible abuse.
Or maybe different PVP and not-PVP worlds. Then there's no mixing at all...for anyone who isn't doing the work and paying the expenses of maintaining the game..... :) |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #9655 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 3:20 am |
Tariana said: Pegga said:
One easy solution to this is to only allow PVP-clans and non-PVP clans, just like it can be restricted by other attributes already. It might upset a few players, but it would solve the problem and any possible abuse. Or maybe different PVP and not-PVP worlds. Then there's no mixing at all...for anyone who isn't doing the work and paying the expenses of maintaining the game..... :)
That's exactly what will happen if we continue to restrict non-PVP players. If non-PVP players are not allowed to participate in clans, trade on the open market, trade resources to other players... why bother being in a multiplayer game at all? |
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| Poseidon Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 113 years old
Real Name: Jack Website: Click HereEmail: kingclown00@hotmail.com | Message #9663 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 4:32 am |
| The real question is, why join a PvP oriented game if you're going to opt out of 90% of what makes that game? |
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| Elydian Posts: 33
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 110 years old
| Message #9692 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 3:45 pm |
| Poseidon said:
The real question is, why join a PvP oriented game if you're going to opt out of 90% of what makes that game?
Socilization
Proactive support of a community w/o being open for attacks that use classic internet reasoning
I could probably go on, but the main point being that there ARE reasons to join a community that don't involve PvP.
I'd also like to note that PvP exempt players are able to exist on both sides of any Clan vs Clan conflict, which inherently balances out the equation. It's just a matter of shelling out for the service. Non-combatants are't useless after all, despite the fact that the standard PvP mindset would dictate otherwise. |
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| Tariana Posts: 162
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old
| Message #9699 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 4:41 pm |
| Poseidon said:
The real question is, why join a PvP oriented game if you're going to opt out of 90% of what makes that game?
PVP is so NOT 90% of this game. There's the setting and the friends and trying to figure out which monsters you can beat up (because level is soooo not all you need to know!) and deciding what to get next for your workshop and how to beat up the monsters the best way and which monsters give you the best stuff and what will you be able to build with the next level of armor/eyes/ranged weapons/etc and should you get more strength for your golem or save up for your next mage level and all kinds of fun stuff! |
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| Endovior Posts: 172
Location: Nournsland
Magus Age: 117 years old
| Message #9721 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 6:45 pm |
| Perhaps so... but all of that takes place within a PvP environment. If you can do all the things a regular player can, but don't have to guard your workshop, then it changes the whole dynamic. |
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