Muelsfell: Rise of the Golems - Fantasy Browser Games by Necrotales Games

Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 113 years old

Real Name: Jack
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Email: kingclown00@hotmail.com

Message #9735 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 9:46 pm

PvP so IS 90% of this game. Think about it, everything you do in this game revolves around combat. What good is upgrading your resource gathering buildings if not to make better golems out of them? Leveling up gives nothing but allow you to attack more often and with greater potency. What does every research in the library give you? Better ways to beat up your targets. The same with the artificer and the worktable.

While yes, there are critters and such to beat up on, but come on. If you spend your whole game with your goal as taking down the mountain giant, you might do it, and be happy about it, but after 10 or so times it's going to get boring.

And as for the community and player communication (i.e. the forums), if that's all you're going to do you shouldn't care about being raided anyway because it doesn't concern you.

Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #9738 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 10:41 pm

Er, would you consider the vague possibility that maybe there's a player or two out there who don't entirely agree with you and enjoys attacking the mountain giant as much or more than another player?

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Clan: OTAKU

Message #9739 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 10:53 pm

Speaking for myself, I am more completionist than competitive. I would be happy knowing I can beat any monster on the map, or succeeding in building an golem completely out of adamantine. I would be happy trying to build a golem out of gold, even if it couldn't do anything, just because I could.

Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
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Real Name: Jack
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Email: kingclown00@hotmail.com

Message #9741 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 11:02 pm

Sure, whatever floats their boat. It's not MY problem if they want to not take part in a large aspect of the game.

But those people should find a clan that will protect them and allow them to go on their merry way, rather than a clan that takes part in frequent wars. That would keep a lot of mud from being slung, and a lot of "omg cheater" comments from being uttered.

Like I said, if they don't like PvP, whatever. But when my inability to attack them becomes used in an unfair way, such as the way this thread suggests, something needs to be done to prevent such exploits. Regardless of whether or not both sides can do it, it's still cheating, and two sides of cheaters makes for a really boring war.

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not accusing you of a thing. What I'm saying is that if it is possible for something to be exploited, the exploit should be eliminated, whether or not the exploit is being used.

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Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old

Message #9742 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 11:23 pm

Poseidon said:
And as for the community and player communication (i.e. the forums), if that's all you're going to do you shouldn't care about being raided anyway because it doesn't concern you.

And if all you care about is being able to freely smash up and ruin things that other people have worked hard on, then you're nothing more than a worthless bully.

Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #9743 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 11:32 pm

Tariana said:

And if all you care about is being able to freely smash up and ruin things that other people have worked hard on, then you're nothing more than a worthless bully.

I had to do a double take there when I realized that wasn't directed at me.

Poseidon, in principle I agree with you, however, I disagree with all current suggestions of "fixes" for this, and can't come up with anything that I'd consider "fair." As such it's my opinion that no changes should be made, as any proposed changes would, in my view, unfairly gimp or limit the game for certain people.

Of course it's Ark's opinion that matters, not mine. So if your argument's strong enough to convince him, congrats.

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Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old

Message #9748 Posted: Aug 7, 2008, 11:52 pm

CommComms said:

Tariana said:
And if all you care about is being able to freely smash up and ruin things that other people have worked hard on, then you're nothing more than a worthless bully.

I had to do a double take there when I realized that wasn't directed at me.

Oops! That was a little harsh, huh? I was just trying to make a point about not sneering at how other people enjoy the game and stuff.

Last Edited: Aug 7, 2008, 11:53 pm

Posts: 241
Location: Shuul
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Real Name: Jack
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Message #9751 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 12:00 am

A bully? Ha! Ask anyone around what I did for experience for a long time. Most people will tell you that I sent armless flesh golems at people to gain experience without causing much harm to them or their workshops. That was a courtesy, as in I did it because I didn't want to piss people off. In fact, I'd probably still do that if it wasn't for the fact that everyone complained about it and forced me to put arms on to get any exp out of it.

I can't even tell you the last time I've made a real attempt to break someone's defense (save for MAGIER members, for obvious reasons). In fact, whenever I had to put arms on my fleshie, I would offer to PAY for any wall damage the target suffered.

I'm not sneering at people who enjoy the community portion of the game, hell, I enjoy it myself. But really, if all you do is surf the forums, and not play the game at all, what difference should it make if your workshop is destroyed?

Though this kind of response really shouldn't surprise me. This is the kind of reaction I should have been getting a long time ago, being Muelsfell's darkest magi. Maybe I should beef up my flesh and add a spiked chain or two to it, and show this game what a bully I can really be.

Last Edited: Aug 8, 2008, 12:04 am

Posts: 162
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old

Message #9755 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 12:49 am

Poseidon said:
Most people will tell you that I sent armless flesh golems at people to gain experience without causing much harm to them or their workshops.

Now you're confusing me. So you claim (more or less) that it's pointless to play the game without PVP, but you attack players in a way to avoid damaging them? Not that I wanna encourage beating and smashing, but if you're going to avoid hurting people, why don't you just leave them alone in the first place?

Poseidon said:
I'm not sneering at people who enjoy the community portion of the game, hell, I enjoy it myself. But really, if all you do is surf the forums, and not play the game at all, what difference should it make if your workshop is destroyed?

I don't just surf the forums. I do lots of stuff. It's really not right to say I'm not playing the game at all when I just don't do one little piece of it.

Poseidon said:
Maybe I should beef up my flesh and add a spiked chain or two to it, and show this game what a bully I can really be.

If that's what it takes for you to have fun, I feel really bad for you.

Last Edited: Aug 8, 2008, 12:50 am

Posts: 241
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Real Name: Jack
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Email: kingclown00@hotmail.com

Message #9757 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 1:19 am

I never said it was pointless to play without PvP. I said that PvP is a large portion of the game, and I personally cant see the point in playing without it. It's just my opinion. I dont go around and terrorize young mages, for the sake of PvPing, thats what clan wars are for. And I send the fleshies at them to maximize my exp to motivation ratio while still earning dark points.

But you're missing the point of the thread and my responses, which is that nonPvP can be abused in PvP based clans by allowing them to hold everyone's resources, so as to avoid having them raided. That's what I mean by nonPvP being used unfairly. NonPvP has its place, but that place is not in PvP based clans.

I don't just surf the forums. I do lots of stuff. It's really not right to say I'm not playing the game at all when I just don't do one little piece of it.

I wasn't talking about you specifically, and I wasn't saying you don't play the game. I meant it as an example that if you literally don't play; as in you are still level one without any buildings upgraded and your handless homunculus guarding your shop, and only come here to use the forums then it should not concern you if your shop is attacked. Though again, that's straying from the point of the thread.

If that's what it takes for you to have fun, I feel really bad for you.

Not as much for fun as it is for fairness. After all, if I'm going to get accused of being a bully after all the extents I go to to make sure I don't cause too much damage to innocents, I might as well just be the bully and deal with the criticism.

Halftea

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Message #9761 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 1:45 am

I can vouch for Poseidon being nice about attacking. I was one of his targets way back when, prior to the one-armed/no-armed golem innovations when I occupied a spot on the Good leader board. He was very courteous about the whole thing I must say.

While I'm a nonPvP person by preference, I understand that is a large part of the game. Besides, we are still in beta and working out the bugs. A majority of which seem to occur in PvP combat, so if Kep decides to implement something involving this topic, I daresay we will all be thoroughly testing it to see what may break.

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Message #9763 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 2:27 am

Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough of a player base for us to have two separate games, one for PvP and one nonPvP. Not only do we not have enough player base, but it would double Arkham's workload, and as far as I know he is doing the actual coding and debugging by himself, we only point stuff out for him.

I know I am stating the obvious, since anyone with experience has learned this already, but... if a system exists, someone somewhere will find a way to exploit it. A lot of the work in any system goes to finding and negating possible exploits, but this is not fool proof. It is up to us as the players to play the game as it was intended to be.

Posts: 162
Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old

Message #9793 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 2:01 pm

Pfui! I took too long and lost my post 'cause I got logged out! Here we go again!

Poseidon said:
I never said it was pointless to play without PvP.

I know. You said PVP was 90% of the game. I should've said "mostly pointless". :)

Poseidon said:
After all, if I'm going to get accused of being a bully {snip}

I didn't call you a bully. I said if and everything. I even went back to say it was just an example. Of course I thought you were talking about me with your example, so I guess we're even?

Poseidon said:
But you're missing the point of the thread and my responses {snip}

Ummm....actually the side convo started when you asked "The real question is, why join a PvP oriented game if you're going to opt out of 90% of what makes that game?" I was trying to answer that for you. :)

But to get back to the topic (Spoilsport! :P).
- If both sides can do it, it isn't unfair. Evil and sneaky and slimy maybe, but not unfair.
- I don't think Arkham meant for non-PVP to be used like this. But if he thought it was definitely wrong, wouldn't he have said something like "Stop it or I'll boot you" by now?
- If you shut this down, the next thing will be people hopping clans to hide stuff then coming back with the stuff is needed. Easy to do with open clans. Maybe there should be something to keep that from happening?
- I don't think we're getting official non-PVP clans unless all the members are gonna pay for it. And if it isn't part of the program, what's gonna stop bullies from picking on the non-PVP clans?
- A second world isn't that hard. (Hi, Nanashi-sempai! Didin't forget you!) Most of what needs fixing will be found by the PVP world. All that Arkham has to do is copy all the stuff from there to the non-PVP world and set all the players to non-PVP. I'm not saying it's no work or that it's free, but it's way less than twice as much.

Phew! Thought I'd never shut up!!

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Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #9797 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 3:17 pm

Tariana said:

- I don't think Arkham meant for non-PVP to be used like this. But if he thought it was definitely wrong, wouldn't he have said something like "Stop it or I'll boot you" by now?

Just a note here, but the non-PvP isn't being used like this. I guess a few paranoid people think Magier's secretly hiding all our goodies in our vast herds of no-pvp multi accounts, but they're wrong. To the best of my knowledge this theoretical "abuse" isn't happening anywhere. It'd just be more trouble than it's worth to have to transfer resources every time you wanted to use them. Besides, as far as I can tell, this doesn't break any of the games rules (assuming the accounts aren't multis.)

So this is really a discussion about an aspect of the game that could be used to give someone an unfair advantage over another, and if it's problematic enough to warrant change, and if so, what changes could be made. We're not discussing some dire glitch that's allowing players to generate free powerstones or something.

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Clan: OTAKU

Message #9807 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 5:22 pm

'Sempai'...? I'm not that old...and technically you came before me since you are a higher level...I should call you sempai, Tariana.

As far as a PvP clam member opting out of PvP, the only serious problem I can see is that it will take longer to defeat the clan the member(s) belong(s) to. Do I really need to point out that the more people of a clan that opt out the fewer targets there are in that clan? Even if all but one member opts out, that one member won't ever be able to keep up a defense in a war. Then all the members that opted out will be attacked when there opt out expires, and they can't retaliate.

Yamikuronue

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Message #9812 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 8:27 pm

All we know for sure is that Magier is hiding their stuff someplace - we raid and get nothing, they log on, and a moment later they've got enough stuff to upgrade their wall back to 15 and fully repair four golems <./exaggeration>. For all we know it could be on the market, but I suspected it was being hidden in mule accounts, and then some of my clanmates suspected some of the opt-outs of being mules as we hit target after target and got nothing. <s>Button</s> Adamantine, <s>button</s> adamantine, whose got the <s>button</s> adamantine?

FatherCoyne

Posts: 332
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Magus Age: 116 years old

Real Name: Kevin Coyne
Email: KCoyne@umail.ucsb.edu

Message #9816 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 8:40 pm

Do you guys realize how much admantine you've stolen already? O_O The adamantine we have left all fits under the 5K, and Latour spreads out everything new we make. And money, God... Nageya has over 200,000 of my coins by now. It's been over a long time, but that that hurts.

I don't know how much more you expect, but if your greed can't be sated by us as we stand, I think you're out of options.

Last Edited: Aug 8, 2008, 8:43 pm

Sconibulus

Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old

Message #9817 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 8:58 pm

The adamant you have left fits under 5k? You just put out a new level 5 golem within the past day or so, that's got to be a LOT more than 5k.

Posts: 392
Location: Daylsfeld
Magus Age: 121 years old

Message #9818 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 9:00 pm

Yeah, we pretty much stashed most of the loot in the clan, and now just keep it under the hidden room cap. Whenever I log on I run through my motivation, build what I have to build, then donate all my non-bone/flesh primaries and any raiding loot to the clan.

Aside from the three no-pvp accounts holding onto my spare 800k money, 300k adamantine, and maxed out primaries of course. That's one of our basic membership requirements.

FatherCoyne

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Real Name: Kevin Coyne
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Message #9819 Posted: Aug 8, 2008, 9:05 pm

You're right, it's 37,980, which happens to fit nicely into eight hidden rooms. ^^

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Location: Broukendale
Magus Age: 112 years old

Message #9849 Posted: Aug 9, 2008, 4:04 am

Nanashi said:
'Sempai'...? I'm not that old...and technically you came before me since you are a higher level...I should call you sempai, Tariana.

I'm only 17 and you're 25 and you know lots more than me about the game. Not my fault you're a lower level. Must be that you're one of those slacker upperclassmen who smokes and cuts classes all the time. I, of course, am the nice girl who is always in the library studying and never goes on dates. I'll try not to swoon. ;)

Nanashi said:
Even if all but one member opts out, that one member won't ever be able to keep up a defense in a war. Then all the members that opted out will be attacked when there opt out expires, and they can't retaliate.

Oooh...it'd be really important not to forget to renew your No PVP! You can do that, right?