| Author | Thread: Defenseless Workshops | 1 | 2 | 3 | Page 4 | 5 |
laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #20232 Posted: Dec 16, 2008, 7:09 pm |
And we still have the problem that it is generally safer at high levels to hide behind a level 1 flesh than a level 5 iron, because people won't attack you and lose xp, and because you don't get enough loot from a workshop to make it worth the xp damage.
It seems wrong to tell a clan member "Instead of giving you a big golem with a huge power source and great eyes to defend yourself, use a flesh golem, it's much more effective. And you can have a good clan guard for backup in case someone is just trying to get into the workshop." |
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| Rolund Posts: 26
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 126 years old
| Message #20418 Posted: Dec 18, 2008, 4:56 am |
@ Daryoon. Indeed, and we've tried that. It's worked sometimes.
@ Laidan. Can't disagree there, that's one of my issues with how things are working currently.
I'm tryin not to spaz. Just figured I'd toss my suggestions in. Honestly the only thing that I've come up with currently to deter people just hunting for resources is the suggestion re the hidden room.
Though most people seem to be hunting xp and still being relatively new to this I don't really know what would work well to calm things down a little bit. |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #20561 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 11:16 am |
Just a thought but at the moment the best out come you can expect from a high level guard is 1xp and a large repair bill.
What if the game was turned on it's head a bit and the defender gains 1xp per level of workshop Guard Golem per day*. Any one willing to risk putting an Addy5 out will make themselves a target, but would also be rewarded with a tidy chunk of xp for every day they could maintain it.
There could be even an increased bonus to any non clan members who can manage to maintain a high level guard.
Also in a war situation, clans who's members can no longer defend themselves but refuse to surrender will be forfeiting valuable xp.
*Not applicable to any one who's opts out.
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HalfteaPosts: 1307 Location: Darghelm Magus Age: 132 years old Clan: ADV | Message #20576 Posted: Dec 19, 2008, 3:09 pm |
| An interesting suggestion. Perhaps when Clan Wars become live? |
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| Vanishing Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #20836 Posted: Dec 23, 2008, 6:03 pm |
Just musing out loud a little, for a pvp basis the best way to square things would be to assign xp by player level. Theoretically reflecting experience and strength.
At the moment this couldn't work because players can keep their level low (using xp to boost golem strength and motivation instead).
So what if player level were to be automatically tied in with xp gained instead of spending xp to increase levels?
This would then open the way to ranking combat by the player and not by whatever golem they have out and at the same time deter high level players from attacking new/low level ones.
A system like this could also lead to players being able to lose levels through repeated attacks on others of significantly lower level, but thats beside the point for now.
So, if that prevents most players from being attacked by golems of much greater power than their own (in theory at least. if someone is given a lvl 5 addy from their clan at level 1.....) then it remains to think about why they should guard the workshop in the first place.
Well, walls. I personally have not bothered to build a wall for some time now. With the increase in general weaponry strength i've had a level 15 wall reduced to nothing in 3 attacks, costing me a lot of time and money to replace.
What if walls levels were to be somewhat more expensive, but once bought at wall could regenerate itself at a certain rate from resource stockpiles until it was at full strength again. Thus a level 15 wall would have 1350HP at full strength, and even when fully depleted would possibly have 1HP by the time it was attacked again.
I would question this by thinking that maybe the wall only regenerate if there is a functional golem outside (say the golem rebuilds the wall) and that the better the golem the faster it rebuilds.
Having no golem outside could then either cause the wall to regenerate at a very slow pace or not at all, allowing others to pillage as normal once they have both defeated the guard and flattened the wall.
I'll pause there and see what people think. Of course this would all be mute if it was unfeasable to code in the first place...
like i said, i'm just musing out loud, some things may not be thought through well, if at all, and some trains of though may have been lost... |
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| Astros Posts: 40
Location: Last Alvia Dawning
Magus Age: 113 years old
| Message #21433 Posted: Jan 2, 2009, 7:19 pm |
| I like the idea of player level counting in PvP rather than golem level and agree the walls need to be buffed up to be useful in this new spell environment. But making the wall regenerate would probably counter the original idea of having to repair them. I think a flat buff to the walls (Maybe give them higher armor themselves, or alot more HP) would be best at the moment. |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #21452 Posted: Jan 2, 2009, 10:55 pm |
| That doesn't make sense with strength-boosting though. Unless level is determined by total experience gained, rather then experience spent on levelling. |
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| Vanishing Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #21540 Posted: Jan 3, 2009, 12:47 pm |
aye, i was thinking for player level to be a reflection of total experience gained and automatically increased/decreased as thresholds were passed. leaving xp itself to be spent on motivation increases and golem strength.
also that if walls could regen, the resources would come straight out of storage. provided it was there. no resources no regen. kinda like the resource increasers, but backwards and a bit more complicated....Last Edited: Jan 3, 2009, 12:58 pm |
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| DemonDurai Posts: 92
Location: Jaaron
Magus Age: 111 years old
| Message #21645 Posted: Jan 4, 2009, 12:08 pm |
At the moment a player who spends thousands of experience on a golem to boost its strength, then loses it in combat would be at a disadvantage, if these new combat rule apply.
DDLast Edited: Jan 4, 2009, 12:40 pm |
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| Vanishing Posts: 76
Location: Rimesvin
Magus Age: 123 years old
| Message #21666 Posted: Jan 4, 2009, 3:36 pm |
With regards to xp spend all players would only have to spend on strength and motivation anyway. Under the current system someone who loses a boosted golem not only loses all the xp spent, but also doesn't have a level/base motivation to show for all their effort.
Combat wouldn't be affected in any real way, just that walls would be a more prominent feature.
The real questions of this thread as i think of them are; How to get players to put/keep golems out. And of those put out to have them be more than a level 1 flesh.
and i think that the selection of golem put out is controled mainly by the ECR/XP gain of the fight.
With a level 1 flesh outside the most an attacker can get is 5 xp, which to say that anyone can easily get more xp, probably for less motivation, without risk of retaliation makes the player a very poor target for all but the purpose of raiding the workshop. which is by and large pointless except for stealing money atm.
Though would be more viable if the 'destroy' option were to knock down levels of other workshop structures.
With no defender an attacker can happily take whatever resources that are not in the hidden room or on the market and still leave you in no bad position. golems are safe in the basement and all buildings are intact. except for a small loss of xp and score no real damage is done. and even if you are reduced to a current xp amount of '0' it only takes one venture against a local creature to be able to go out pvp-ing again.
Putting out a high ECR level golem means that pretty much anyone can gain a full 10XP for attacking you, and as long as they ensure their own losses/repair bills are low enough then using a high ECR golem just makes you an ideal punching bag for local antagonists after a good return for low motivation and time spent.
Just come to me now and a bit off topic, perhaps a player should have their workshop location moved to the same site or close to the headquarters of the clan they join...
something to mull over.
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| GAMEBOY Posts: 18
Location: Arzenbourg
Magus Age: 115 years old
Real Name: M. T. Wallet
| Message #23956 Posted: Jan 27, 2009, 3:49 am |
Why does it always have to be you lose something if you don't comply? Why can't there be a small bonus of some kind for having a golem out... i.e. positive reinforcement?
I can tell you if I'll lose exp from that I'll just opt out of PvP. That doesn't encourage me to PvP.
I don't know about the other suggestions but IMO that is not as good a way to get people to keep a golem outside as something maybe beneficial. |
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| Echothrice Posts: 98
Location: Villuno
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #23989 Posted: Jan 27, 2009, 1:48 pm |
| You can only lose xp while defending if your defending golem is destroyed, and then you are looted. If you don't keep a golem outside at all, someone may attempt to loot you, you will lose xp, and they will have free access to whatever resources you have over the hidden room cap. Probably the best defender when you are young is a flesh,bone, or wood lvl1 golem, with low level powersource, and armored chest. This will keep you from losing xp, and does not offer a good target for others to grind xp off of you. Never defend using your homunculus, they seem to be a prime target for certain unscrupulous individuals. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #24001 Posted: Jan 27, 2009, 5:30 pm |
| Don't forget, if you choose your targets right, you can gain back double what you lost in a single hit against another player. |
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| NomNomNom Posts: 41
Location: Hans Mina
Magus Age: 139 years old
| Message #26938 Posted: Mar 6, 2009, 7:50 am |
| I agree with the call from previous posters that we should focus on reward instead of punishment. My apologies if some of these suggestions are repeated, this is a fairly long thread. It seems to me that many players use flesh or incomplete golems because no matter what you use, a golem WILL be destroyed before you can log in to check on it if someone is determined enough. Knowing that my level 5 iron with heavy plate will only last a few more combats than a fleshie, the time and resources to post a larger guard are not worth it. Limiting the amount of time between attacks would be useful. Raising the HP on more advanced golems perhaps. Since critical hits raise the risk of outright destroying a golem, raising the crit. rate on more advanced golems would make them useful guards. Similarly, revising the minimum damage rule for higher golems would make them last longer. Tying the barricade to the golem outside could be interesting. Perhaps the guarding golem adjusts the amount of damage the barricade can prevent? Or prevents the barricade from being reduced beyond a certain point? Its interesting that the lower level golems (bone, wood, clay) have "extra" abilities such as movement advantages or regeneration, but more advanced golems lack flavor other than armor or damage. A radical thought might be removing the ability to gain or lose xp when performing PVP. Right now big shiny golems are XP magnets, not deterrents b/c players can simply repair and repeat. Perhaps make XP depend on winning (disabling the defender, doing more damage than the defender, not losing parts, etc.). |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #28924 Posted: Apr 7, 2009, 4:54 pm |
| Unrelated to recent discussion, but on topic, why can you not put out a golem with one leg, but otherwise combat ready, but you can put out a golem with no power source or no hands (and no head weapon) without even a warning? This doesn't make any sense to me. |
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masterslugPosts: 619 Location: Shuul Magus Age: 124 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #28939 Posted: Apr 7, 2009, 6:33 pm |
| You have a good point, although it would make scrapping more time consuming if you had to put out a golem that was combat ready. |
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ZugZugPosts: 300 Location: Ibonbourg Magus Age: 119 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #29109 Posted: Apr 11, 2009, 4:08 am |
| laidan said:
Unrelated to recent discussion, but on topic, why can you not put out a golem with one leg, but otherwise combat ready, but you can put out a golem with no power source or no hands (and no head weapon) without even a warning? This doesn't make any sense to me.
Because a golem with 1 leg will fall over. |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #29110 Posted: Apr 11, 2009, 4:12 am |
ZugZug said: laidan said:
Unrelated to recent discussion, but on topic, why can you not put out a golem with one leg, but otherwise combat ready, but you can put out a golem with no power source or no hands (and no head weapon) without even a warning? This doesn't make any sense to me. Because a golem with 1 leg will fall over.
And a golem with no power source won't go anywhere. |
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| Kaelas Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old
Real Name: Barry
| Message #29111 Posted: Apr 11, 2009, 4:21 am |
| Actually, based on Harrakan's bug report, a golem without *any* legs is still a danger, but a powerless golem is just a statue. So the one-legged pirate golem should be allowed to fight. |
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NanashiPosts: 1115 Location: Asylum Magus Age: 120 years old Clan: OTAKU | Message #29113 Posted: Apr 11, 2009, 4:29 am |
| Sconi just forgot to put up the sign that said "insert 1 silver", isn't that right? Otherwise, how is his swordbearer supposed to dance? |
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| Sconibulus Posts: 664
Location: Shuul
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #29114 Posted: Apr 11, 2009, 4:33 am |
Which one? : () )
Oh, an idea for an incentive to leave a powerful golem out, have xp earned on defense be based on damage dealt to the opponent, if possible, rather than on the golem variety. 1 XP per 50 damage dealt, capped at 10 would be good I think, reasonable seeming. I also think that, in the case of the defender dealing zero damage, if the attacker would gain less than zero experience, it is raised to zero. |
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laidanPosts: 1158 Location: Mottonsborough Magus Age: 113 years old Clan: OASIS | Message #36407 Posted: Sep 11, 2009, 8:06 pm |
| So this still seems like an issue to me, the idea that having a worthless golem out front of your workshop nets your more for a battle, and at no risk since you don't care if it gets smashed, than having a useful defender of any sort just appears wrong. I can see that newbies need to be able to defend themselves, maybe if the xp gained from a flesh defense drops every few levels, going to 0 when you hit 10? Not gaining as much xp from smashing a fleshy at least makes a little bit of sense I guess. |
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| Kaelas Posts: 1052
Location: Darghelm
Magus Age: 118 years old
Real Name: Barry
| Message #36436 Posted: Sep 12, 2009, 3:48 am |
| An idea that won't work now but could in the future occurs to me. Once non-wall building destruction is up, perhaps it could be limited to only buildings over a certain level. If you had the resources (and time) to max a building once, you should be able to do so again without too much effort. But preventing this might be enough incentive to defend one's workshop. Obviously, the minimum level and which buildings could be damaged would have to be chosen rather carefully but the idea seems sound- to me anyway. |
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| Vardos Posts: 146
Location: Mallow
Magus Age: 120 years old
| Message #36438 Posted: Sep 12, 2009, 9:16 am |
If I may make a suggestion if a reward system is going to be in place. First a golem standing guard gaining experience would make sense as in most fantasy settings i am betting that they don't sit in the swamp, desert etc for you to kill them. They roam a bit and this would reflect your golem chasing away monsters that would otherwise damage your stuff.
24 hours is a bitlong for an xp timer though since i doubt anyone will make it that far due to the attack patern towards people with high level golems out. A suggestion would be for every either 6 or 12 hours of having that specific golem out would garner xp. Put a bar on the golem page or something that shows how long you have to go to make xp. Realisitically people still won't stick out addy's (even if its 1 xp per level you can go with insane repairs for 14 or something thats not exotic for 9-10 easy) so unless there was a multiplier for rare materials people still won't stick golems out that are expensive/difficult to repair.
Just some thoughts at 3am
Vardos Korinth "Kinslayer"
The Dark Putz |
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| Yamikuronue Posts: 1288
Location: Mottonsborough
Magus Age: 116 years old
| Message #36447 Posted: Sep 12, 2009, 6:13 pm |
| I only ever get attacked once every few days. Which is good, because I barely play the game at this rate, but you have to balance it for less high-profile people who rarely get hit. |
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